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Science Deniers are Everywhere

 
 
camlok
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 29 May, 2017 09:41 am
@Olivier5,
That it is, from two "scientists"/science deniers and a science denier.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 May, 2017 09:42 am
@camlok,
Sorry?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 29 May, 2017 11:02 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
There are artists who call upon science in their pursuit of artistic truth,

Artists are looking for beauty, not for truth.


Well, unlike you I don't deign to speak for all artists but I have seen or heard more than one describe their art as an expression of truth.

You're French and so can be forgiven for viewing art only through the eyes of Monet, Renoir and Degas, but if there was ever an age when artists only searched for beauty, it was a very, very long time ago.

Now I suppose you could expand your definition of "beauty" to include much of the work of de Kooning, Matsys, Bosch, Goya, Becksinski, and Picasso (to name but a few) but if you did, you would almost certainly have to move into the realm abstract concepts where you would find "truth" at the head of the line.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 May, 2017 11:04 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
The problem with the term "science denier" is that it is most often used as a political weapon.

Science denial -- defined as the conscious, systematic undermining of science in the public eye when science says something you don't like -- is itself a political activity in that it is meant to alter a country's politics. It follows that the fight against science denial is equally political. There's nothing wrong with that.


That would be all well and good if the use of the term was restricted to your definition, but, of course, it is not.
camlok
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 May, 2017 11:08 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
That would be all well and good if the use of the term was restricted to your definition, but, of course, it is not.


oralloy style opinions don't count, Finn.
0 Replies
 
camlok
 
  0  
Reply Mon 29 May, 2017 11:14 am
The funniest thing of all, the weirdest thing, the nuttiest thing, the kafkaesque thing, ..., is that here at an American website, frequented by the grand inventors and world wide defenders of free speech, I am prevented/banned/stopped from providing copious examples of outright science denial.

Science denial even by scientists.

Where are you, George Orwell?
ossobucotemp
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 May, 2017 12:00 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
In long ago art discussions on a2k, I said my interest was in beauty, but that my definition of beauty wasn't a matter of being pretty, but a matter of the word "fit". JL Nobody understood me.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 May, 2017 12:02 pm
@camlok,
Scientists are people too and everybody denies and accepts according to his own world vision especially when things get confusing. Ideally, we have to remind ourselves every day to counter this behaviour as much as we can.
The problem here is not just about knowing who has or has not denied solid science once in a while but to distinguish those who do it every day for a living from those who sometimes can't avoid some personal bias. They are very different in kind.
camlok
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 May, 2017 12:06 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
They are not very different in kind. This is a denial that has seen millions die. These people are the equivalent not of Holocaust deniers, they are Holocaust supporters.

A scientist should never deny science just because it accuses his/her country.

Look at all the German scientists the US gathered into their fold. And they were supposed to be the evil ones.

When things get confusing, that is the time for scientists to step to the front, not cower in the background, hurling inane insults.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 May, 2017 12:37 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
An artist can search for truth in the sense that he can try to express an accurate vision of some human experience. But it's an esthetic truth, subjective by design, meant to express subjectivity. You can't use that in court. But you can use science in court. Clearly there are different sorts of "truth" here.



0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 May, 2017 02:08 pm
@ossobucotemp,
ossobucotemp wrote:

In long ago art discussions on a2k, I said my interest was in beauty, but that my definition of beauty wasn't a matter of being pretty, but a matter of the word "fit". JL Nobody understood me.

I remember you using this expression. Intuitively I sense something of the sort too, though i can't say what it fits in or on. Something inside.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 May, 2017 02:13 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Scientists are people too and everybody denies and accepts according to his own world vision especially when things get confusing. Ideally, we have to remind ourselves every day to counter this behaviour as much as we can. The problem here is not just about knowing who has or has not denied solid science once in a while but to distinguish those who do it every day for a living from those who sometimes can't avoid some personal bias.
They are very different in kind.


I haven't been following along too closely lately, but I agree with this post.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 May, 2017 02:25 pm
@edgarblythe,
Me too.
0 Replies
 
camlok
 
  -4  
Reply Mon 29 May, 2017 02:33 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
but to distinguish those who do it [lie] every day for a living


NIST, one of the top science groups in the USA did it for a large number of years.

I'm not at all sure how or why or even who you are making apologies for, Fil.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 May, 2017 07:35 am
There is a big difference between real science and fake science.

Real science is done by scientists. To become a scientist (at the highest level) one must undergo 12 years of study, master advanced mathematics, take courses in general science and in a specialty, do original research, defend a thesis in front of peers. Yes, anyone can read studies... but the truth is that if you don't have an advanced degree you have zero chance of really understanding them to the level that you can question them. That is nothing on you, that is the nature of science today in our modern, highly advanced society.

When we decide whether to accept or deny science, we are really talking about accepting or denying the work of scientific institutions. Very few of us have a science degree. Even fewer have ever actually analyzed genetic data, or learned how to analyze the kinetics of falling buildings, or understood climate models or analyzed ice core readings.

If the term "science denier" has any meaning... other than a completely subjective term to refer to people with whom you disagree, it has to mean denying the institutions of science; meaning NIST and NASA and the NIH etc. Everyone can make up their own "science". Creationists don't deny science as they see it. 9/11 truthers don't deny science as they see it. Anti-vaxxers, GMO deniers, UFO believers.... all of them have a belief in what they consider "science". None of them consider themselves a science denier.

Our society has built up institutions of science. When you look at the consensus; if 95% or 97% or 99% of scientists (experts) in a given field agree, that is the scientific consensus and the other side are the deniers (there are always 2 or 3% of dissenters on any issue). Yes, you have every right to reject science. And sure, the experts who spent lifetimes of study and research could be wrong (and the people who find truth in YouTube videos could be right).

Real science is done by professional scientists. It is your choice to accept or reject their work (although I think we as a society should value it).
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 May, 2017 09:22 am
@maxdancona,
Let me spice it up for ya... I deny the Universe come out of nothingness!
...care to comment?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 May, 2017 09:35 am
@maxdancona,
If the only people in the 2% or 3% who disagree with the "consensus" are uneducated amateurs, frauds or kooks, you have a point. If, on the other hand, they have gone through the same rigorous education and training as the majority who are in agreement, than your point falls apart.

It is dangerous, I think, for a society to accept that there are some very important topics that they can't possible understand and therefore they should just accept what the experts who can understand them are telling them.

Virtually every field has a level of complexity and specific knowledge requirements that prevent people outside of that field from fully understanding. Are you suggesting that once a consensus opinion is formed by the "experts" in these fields, that those of us who are not expert should accept their conclusions and move on?

We've already established that "science denial" means something different to a lot of people, so pronouncements on what it really is and what we are really talking about are not likely to be of a whole lot of value.

From what I have observed, far more people "deny" specific conclusions drawn by "scientists" than they do the legitimacy of the scientific method or institutions of science. Generally the conclusions they "deny" are intimately linked with government policy and political agendas that can't be described as representing "science."

Most people who don't accept evolution don't really give a damn whether you or I do. Some, who actually care about us, may see our acceptance as some sign that we have not been saved, but I certainly haven't run across many of these people in person or otherwise. Have you? What they care most about is what is being taught to children in schools. There really is no other societal application of the theory of evolution. Since it may be considered the primary operating principle of life it's all around us and figures, in some way, in everything we do and think, but we don't have foreign or economic policies explicitly based on the what we know (or think we know) about evolution that can be challenged by people who don't accept the theory. I'm not a big fan of teaching children nonsense (guess what though? It happens every day and sometimes in science classes as illustrated by my 10th Grade Chemistry class and Mr. Kowalski's admission that everything he was teaching us about atomic structure was considered to be nonsense by real scientists) and I would strenuously resist any effort to not teach children evolution, but while I understand why some people strenuously resist teaching children alternative creation theories that can't stand up to scientific scrutiny I have found that has I've aged, I've become less of an absolutist in many things (I know, hard to believe) and I really don't have a problem with a biology teacher spending maybe an hour of a semester telling her students that some people believe in creationism that says so and so (I don't even know what they contend) although very few scientists accept these ideas. It could even be used to discuss the scientific method providing it was not done in a way that ridiculed people who believed in creationism. Given that kids are taught crap all of the time and this topic can be a serious source of community tension in some places, I don't think some meager compromise is unjustifiable or is likely to result in our public schools turning out ignorant morons. It's important for kids to realize that not everyone agrees on everything and that disagreement with a norm is not necessarily a bad thing and, in any case, should be tolerated by society.

Climate change is something entirely different. As the zealots are prepared to tell us everyday, climate change is having an influence on virtually everything in our lives from the economy to Islamist terrorism. Policies that are based in part on certain beliefs about climate change can and likely will have a significant impact on the lives of individuals. It doesn't seem wise then for the citizenry to simply say "This is too complex for us to understand so we should just trust what is represented as the consensus view"

People who reject the consensus may be seen as "denying" that particular conclusion of a majority of scientists, but it's a huge stretch to suggest they deny science or the scientific method. People who question the consensus are not denying anything other than the matter is 100% settled, and people who reject or question policy proposals for dealing with climate change shouldn't even be considered in this discussion (but of course they are).

The number of individuals who believe all of the conclusions are actually true but are denying them for monetary or political gain deserve the scorn they attract, but they are relatively very few and in any case, unless they provided a confession, how does anyone know what they actually believe. One would think that with so many experts, political leaders and everyday people buying into climate change orthodoxy these saboteurs, if you will, would be a minimal threat to the movement. If everyone doesn't accept all of the conclusions, it's not because a relative handful of professional deniers have been so amazing effective with their disinformation campaign.

What is undeniable is that climate change has been politicized and whether they are systemic or exceptional there have been occasions when scientists were caught fudging the data to support a particular conclusion. In light of these two things alone, I'm really amazed that anyone thinks that questioning conclusions and proposals is irrational.

In addition, despite the scorn and vitriol zealots send in their direction there are legitimate scientists who also question some of the conclusions, and they are not all kooks or frauds posting YouTube videos online. They have undergone the same rigorous training and education as the consensus scientists. That there is a minority opinion about some of the consensus conclusions certainly isn't proof that those conclusions are erroneous, but it does mean that a layman's questioning the conclusions is not irrational.
camlok
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 30 May, 2017 10:11 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
There is a big difference between real science and fake science.


Yes, there most assuredly is; real science doesn't deny stark realities. Those that deny these realities are by definition purveyors of fake science. Those who support those who deny reality, even folks with an undergraduate physics degree, are supporters and purveyors of fake science.
0 Replies
 
ossobucotemp
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 May, 2017 11:29 am
@Olivier5,
Yes, you get what I meant.
0 Replies
 
camlok
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 30 May, 2017 12:19 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
If the term "science denier" has any meaning... other than a completely subjective term to refer to people with whom you disagree, it has to mean denying the institutions of science; meaning NIST and NASA and the NIH etc.


"science denier" is an interesting collocation.

Your central premise is wrong, Max. The use doesn't have to extend to "denying the institutions of science" as a whole. It can mean challenging any of the given precepts of any of those institutions. Isn't that science?

Has NASA or the NIH ever hidden their "science" from any and all scientists. That would be the antithesis of science.

And yet this is exactly what NIST has done and then they defended spurious theories that defy reality. Is this science?

They created, out of whole cloth, theories for three separate events that have never occurred, either before or since.

Then for two of those events, they proceeded with their "study" and then stopped, where they inserted, "a miracle happened", which they refused to explain. Is this science?

Within the "study" part of their study, they denied the existence of a number of things that in reality existed, things that were unhelpful to their conclusions. Is this science?

They were having a difficult time getting a handle on the Whys of the third building, by their own admission, yet they confidently pronounced a "brand new phenomenon".

Science always demands replication especially for such incredible new claims. But NIST hid their data. Is this science?

They hid free fall until they were challenged on it, whereupon, the two lead scientists were both like deer caught in the headlights. It was painful to watch their squirming. Is this what passes for science in the USA?

Such an important event! Why wouldn't NIST/aka the US government encourage and support the use of the wealth of knowledge found in the many scientists from around the world? Isn't this how science is supposed to work?

NIST categorically denied evidence from hundreds of eyewitnesses. Is this science?

NIST categorically denied direct evidence from hundreds of eyewitnesses regarding evidence found at the sites that was fatal to their conclusions. Is this science?

NIST ignored the science done by FEMA , USGS, RJ Lee Group and others. Is this science?

NIST relied, finally, on a theory describing collapse, from a paper that was published on September 13, 2001. That's two days after the event, when dust still likely was in the air. Is this science?

Are any one of these incredible anomalies indicative of science? Taken as a whole, can anyone honestly say they are indicative of science?

0 Replies
 
 

 
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