Who said that if you voted against homosexual marriage it means you are homophobic or bigoted? Can you quote the post here?
mesquite wrote:Foxfyre wrote:Yes. I don't agree that homosexuality is a sin. But because I understand why some can sincerely believe this without causing or intending any harm to gay people and because I oppose changing the definition of marriage, I am labeled homophobic, bigoted, and wanting to deny rights to others.
The problem is not people having a belief. The problem is that some act to force their belief upon others and this does cause harm.
The reluctance to "change the definition of marriage" is a red herring. It is most obvious from the propositions that have been brought forward in various states the issue and denial of rights is far more encompassing.
No, the problem is one person attempting to condemn or mischaracterize a person because s/he holds a different opinion.
And there are legitimate opinions on both sides of the definition of marriage issue. I take one side. You take the other. The difference between us is that I don't think you or others are terrible because you hold the opinion you hold. But most who differ with me on this board obviously think I am just based on the mischaracterizations and uncomplimentary adjectives regularly employed.
There is Group A who prefers to state their opinion and attempts to support it. And there is Group B who prefers to attack anybody who disagrees or thinks differently than Group B.
Look around and see who belongs in each group in this discussion.
Foxfyre wrote:There is Group A who prefers to state their opinion and attempts to support it. And there is Group B who prefers to attack anybody who disagrees or thinks differently than Group B.
Nonsense. When people who hold certain opinions are told the substance of their opinion is idiotic, they then claim they were personally insulted, and use that as an excuse to dodge an examination of the substance of their expressed opinion--which is not at all what you are claiming above.
Care to explain how your marriage is diminished if homosexuals are allowed to marry?
Denial is NOT a river in Egypt! :wink:
In neither of the cases which you cited, MOAN, did C.I. refer to you specifically as a bigot or a homophobe--and the first quote does not refer to those terms at all.
You have consistently dodged the question i asked while attempting to smear me with a brush loaded from C.I.'s remarks. I justifiably resent that. How does granting to homosexuals the full civil rights which all adults enjoy diminish your civil rights?
Momma Angel wrote:Denial is NOT a river in Egypt!
Obviously not--the spelling isn't even close. It is, however, where you seem to love to bury your head.
Quote:Cycloptichorn,
I believe homosexuality is wrong. Therefore, I would not vote for gay marriage because I believe that if I would vote yes then I am throwing aside my principles. I can also see how my voting no would essentially be denying someone else's right to choose how they want to live their life.
Because I can see that side of it, I have said that if given the chance to vote on this issue, I would abstain. Thus, neither approving nor disapproving. I feel this would be the fairest thing for me to do.
I have been told by some that if I voted no on this it means I am homophobic or bigoted. My question then became, if I abstain from this vote but still believe that homosexuality is wrong, am I still considered a homophobe or bigot?
I do not understand why this is such a hard question to answer. I have adjusted my thinking to not being discriminating by casting my vote. I thought that was the issue here. If it's not the issue, I'd like to know what it is.
I didn't ask you how you would vote, or if you believe homosexuality is wrong. I asked if you believe that everyone is entitled to equal protection and rights under the laws established during the foundation of this nation. Do you, or do you not, believe that all people are created equal and are entitled to equal rights?
Quote:If it's not the issue, I'd like to know what it is.
This is what the issue is; do you believe that Homosexuals are equals to other people in the eyes of the law, or not? All this claptrap about how you would vote is immaterial.
Cycloptichorn
I think many here are being Godophobic [size=8](c)[/size]. They see others beliefs in marriage as a religious experience as somehow "bad" or "evil". They can't seem to understand that for some people, it's a holy sacrament between a couple and their God.
Imposing their non-belief in God by forcing them to accept something they believe is wrong is the other side of this coin.
This is why I have firmly held onto the notion of legal civil unions for same-sex couples that wish to have the same governmental benefits as hetero-couples. I see no harm in that and see it as a benefit to society and to the people wishing it.
I have stated before (in this thread I believe) that no one should be discriminated against for who they are, what they are, or what they believe.
Is that not good enough? If not, why?
I had an epiphany on the gay marriage issue some time ago, and it is this:
Gov't should get out of the marriage busienss, period. Let the churches handle it as they see fit. What the gov't should do is assure that rights and privileges afforded to straight couples are also afforded to gay couples. Call it civil union and have done with it. Then each couple, if they so desire, can go wherever they want for a ceremony.
In that case, I expect that you support the idea of allowing Gays to marry, correct?
You can't have your cake and eat it, too; either you are for discrimination against gays, or against it. If you are against it, you have a duty to vote equal rights for them the same way that our ancestors voted equal rights for you.
Saying that you would 'abstain from voting' is essentially the same as a vote for the status quo, namely, discrimination.
Your religious beliefs really have nothing to do with this question, by the way; I have no doubt that you believe Satanic Worship and Paganism are wrong as well, but would you support a ban on certain people's religious beliefs? Would you not vote to lift such a ban if it existed? Because that would be a decidedly UnAmerican position to take, given the history of the nation.
You have to be able to take a step back from your beliefs about what is right and wrong for you, and consider what is right and wrong for the Country.
Cycloptichorn
She just can't bring herself to say that homosexuals are equal under the law. Sad.
Momma Angel wrote:Cycloptichorn Wrote:
Quote:In that case, I expect that you support the idea of allowing Gays to marry, correct?
No. I do not support the idea.
This is logically inconstent with your statemtent that you believe in equal rights under the law for all people. Are you aware of this?
You can't have your cake and eat it, too; either you are for discrimination against gays, or against it. If you are against it, you have a duty to vote equal rights for them the same way that our ancestors voted equal rights for you.
Oh really? Ok, try this one on for size, why dontcha? You are either for God or against God. True or false? So, no middle ground, huh? I can't just abstain from voting because if I voted my conscience then I would be discriminating? If I don't vote I am discriminating because I am not supporting it? Sorry, not buying that a bit.
It doesn't matter if you don't 'buy' it, the logical error remains the same. You have the certain rights today, including the right to vote, because people in the past worked hard in order to make sure that everyone had equal rights under the law, including those groups who are minorities or unpopular in America. Standing by and claiming no responsibility for the maintenance of the status quo is a false position; you have a responsibility as a citizen of the US to uphold the principles of the Constitution of the US, namely, to uphold the principles of equality for all people. You dodge that responsibility in order to uphold your religious beliefs, but your religion should have nothing to do with what is right and wrong for America; we are a secular nation.
Your 'either for or against god' example is a poor dichotomy that has nothing to do with the current conversation whatsoever; you are comparing a situation with empirical evidence to one without any possibility of empirical evidence.
Saying that you would 'abstain from voting' is essentially the same as a vote for the status quo, namely, discrimination.
Right. And until I agree with you and others and vote for it I am a bigot or homophobe. Well, at least you are more honest than some of the others. You make it very clear that I am wrong unless I think the way you do about this.
Straw men, all of them. I never said any of those things that you have said. I never called you a bigot or a homophobe. I have not seen you display this behavior. I'm not sure why you would accuse me of such a thing in the middle of a rational discussion. Others may have done so, but that is no excuse for accusing me of having done so, thank you very much.
I am asking you to explain the logical inconsistencies with your position. It is not wrong, nor an insult, to ask someone to explain their logic.
Your religious beliefs really have nothing to do with this question, by the way; I have no doubt that you believe Satanic Worship and Paganism are wrong as well, but would you support a ban on certain people's religious beliefs? Would you not vote to lift such a ban if it existed? Because that would be a decidedly UnAmerican position to take, given the history of the nation.
You can do much better than that.
This is not an answer to any of my questions. In fact, I would say that this response is typical of someone who does not have an adequate answer for the questions, because it exposes the hollowness of the position.
As they are simple questions, I will write them again for clarity's sake:
Would you support a ban on certain religious beliefs that the Bible says are wrong?
Would you vote to remove such a ban if it already existed?
You have to be able to take a step back from your beliefs about what is right and wrong for you, and consider what is right and wrong for the Country.
Like duh! You're not listening! I said I would abstain. You just won't be satisfied until I see it your way, admit it. 
I won't be satisfied until you explain your logical inconsistencies. That is all. I'm not asking you to agree with me that all people are equal; I'm asking you to explain how you can believe that all people are equal while believing that Homosexuals are not equal. Not taking action to correct a logical problem, be it with life or the law, is the same as tacitly admitting that you don't care if your position is illogical.
Cycloptichorn
Perhaps we can keep this discussion civil and not accuse each other of things, do you think so?
Cycloptichorn
I prefer the childish ideal that the world was black and white, that one was either correct or incorrect, etc.
It's too bad we don't live in that reality. Life would be so much easier.
Essentially, you see marriage as sacred, a commitment between God and a couple who truly believe they can share life wholly and purely (and probably a few other adjectives I'm to young to fathom) for the rest of their lives, until death do they part. A homosexual couple, as their practicing the actions preferred to them by their sexuality is renounced by the Bible, should not be allowed said sanctity.
Very well. This is soley a religious stand-point. For legalities, such as those rights granted to a married couple (i.e. tax deduction, can not testify spouse's words or actions in a court of law, etc.), to be granted to a homosexual couple is within your liking, ne?
