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The anti-gay marriage movement IS homophobic

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 06:11 pm
blatham wrote:
Evil german.



LOL.!!!!

Blatham has a wonderful sense of humor which almosr makes up for the many nutty ideas he holds and his rather odd concepts of logical fallacies.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 09:16 pm
angie wrote:
A few pages back, Thomas wrote: "My point is that while incest, polygamy and homosexuality aren't necessarily bad, prohibiting them does not violate fundamental rights, in contrast to what many advocates of gay marriage are arguing. "

Well, it may not "violate" rights, but it does deny rights, and for me, that's what this is really all about. As I have said many times, if a civil union carried with it all and exactly the same rights between partners as civil marriage currently does, I (and I believe most gay people) would support that union.

re: polygamy. I would not oppose any legal civil union between two consenting adults. I would oppose a legal civil union between more than two consenting adults, but only for economic reasons as, obviously, large groups of people might then form such "unions" for benefits only(e.g. health care). If benefits within such a civil union were, however, restricted to only two members of the union, I would have no opposition.


Then you are denying polygamists rights. Isn't healthcare one of the main reason homosexuals wish to be "married"?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 09:31 pm
Thomas wrote:
blatham wrote:
The above is, as I'm sure you recognize, from the finding of the Massachusetts SC from last year.

Yes. And I predict it will be overridden within 10 years at most -- either by the Federal Supreme Court or by a change in the Massachussetts constitution.

I suggest, Thomas, that you either learn more about the US legal system or else stop offering ill-informed opinions regarding it. The US Supreme Court can't overturn the Massachusetts Supreme Court's ruling, since that ruling was based upon an interpretation of the state's constitution.

Thomas wrote:
1) The deprivation is not arbitrary. It has a tradition of several millenia, and it reflects an proven inability of homosexuals to bear children, and a widely believed inability of them to rear them. You can argue that the tradition ought to be broken, and that homosexuals indeed can rear children. But the assertion that the deprivation is arbitrary is, sorry, ridiculous.

I don't understand this. If the bases for a position are invalid, but the position is maintained nevertheless, why isn't the continued maintenance of that position "arbitrary?"

Thomas wrote:
2) "For no rational reason" -- ditto. You can argue that the reasons are mistaken, and I do, but to claim that they are not rational is nonsense.

Ditto -- see above.

Thomas wrote:
3) homosexuals are not a class, they just exhibit a certain kind of behavior. If you believe this behavior isn't worth subsidizing through a public institution like marriage, you aren't discriminating "against a defined class".

I don't understand this either. What, according to you, constitutes a class? Blacks, after all, are just people who exhibit a certain kind of skin color. Do they constitute a class? Germans are just people who exhibit a certain combination of cultural traits. Do they constitute a class? Libertarians are just people who exhibit a certain kind of behavior. Do they constitute a class?
0 Replies
 
angie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 09:32 pm
Yes of course it is, but the "two" consenting adults criteria is an equivalent civil rights situation for two straight people and for two gay people. Involving more than two people is not an equivalent situation.

(And I'm thinking you knew that already.)
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 07:30 am
joefromchicago wrote:
I suggest, Thomas, that you either learn more about the US legal system or else stop offering ill-informed opinions regarding it. The US Supreme Court can't overturn the Massachusetts Supreme Court's ruling, since that ruling was based upon an interpretation of the state's constitution.

Thank you for your advice, even though I am disinclined to take any of it this time. I was writing shorthand when I said the federal Supreme Fourt would overrule the Massachusetts Supreme Court. What I actually had in mind was a scenario like the following two:

1) Joe from Texas and Jack from Massachusetts marry in Boston. They move to Texas and request to have their marriage license recognized by the state of Texas. Texas rejects the request. Joe and Jack sue in a federal court. They argue that Texas marriage law violates the fourteenth amendment of the federal constitution. The case moves to the federal Supreme Court, which rules in favor of Texas. While none of this is legally binding on state governments and their views of marriage, the ruling causes the "equal protection" case for gay marriage to lose its traction in the legal community. Pretty soon, the Massachusetts Supreme Court overrules its decision.

2) Anticipating the story of Jack and Joe, the Republican majority in the federal congress passes a law that defines marriage as being between a man and a woman. The ACLU, and maybe some liberal states, sue in the federal courts on grounds of state rights, and on equal protection grounds. The Supreme Court rules in favor of Congress, and against the ACLU. On the equal protection argument, it rules as described in 1). On the states rights argument, somewhat ironically, it holds that the federal government has a compelling interest to keep marriage reasonably consistent across the nation, and that the Commerce Clause of the federal constitution gives it the power to act on that interest.

In both scenarios, the Massatchusetts Supreme Court's recent decision will end up dead, and the Federal Supreme Court will have killed it. So why would I go into all those procedural details when my point is about constitutional politics, not the litigation process?

joefromchicago wrote:
Thomas wrote:
1) The deprivation is not arbitrary. It has a tradition of several millenia, and it reflects an proven inability of homosexuals to bear children, and a widely believed inability of them to rear them. You can argue that the tradition ought to be broken, and that homosexuals indeed can rear children. But the assertion that the deprivation is arbitrary is, sorry, ridiculous.

I don't understand this. If the bases for a position are invalid, but the position is maintained nevertheless, why isn't the continued maintenance of that position "arbitrary?"

Because the opposite of "arbitrary" isn't "just" or "correct". More like "predictable", "comprehensible", "governed by rules", or something in this spirit. A long-standing tradition, even if wrong, is still predictable. Keeping things like they are, even if they shouldn't, is a clear, simple rule that everybody understands. Hence, the conservative case against gay marriage may well be misguided, pigheaded, and dogmatic. But arbitrary it is not.

joefromchicago wrote:
Thomas wrote:
3) homosexuals are not a class, they just exhibit a certain kind of behavior. If you believe this behavior isn't worth subsidizing through a public institution like marriage, you aren't discriminating "against a defined class".

I don't understand this either. What, according to you, constitutes a class? Blacks, after all, are just people who exhibit a certain kind of skin color. Do they constitute a class? Germans are just people who exhibit a certain combination of cultural traits. Do they constitute a class? Libertarians are just people who exhibit a certain kind of behavior. Do they constitute a class?

I would go with Webster's definitions 2a and 2b.

Webster wrote:
2 a : a group sharing the same economic or social status <the working class> b : social rank; especially : high social rank

Applying this concept to specific interest groups in society is not an exact science. It involves judgment. For what it's worth, in my judgment, Blacks before the civil rights movement could usefully be considered a class but they are becoming less and less so. German Americans might have been a class hundred years ago, when their emigration to the USA peaked and they were a reasonably homogenous group. But they are definitely not a class today. And libertarians and homosexuals never were.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 09:03 am
angie wrote:
Well, it may not "violate" rights, but it does deny rights, and for me, that's what this is really all about.

To me, that's what this is all about too. But granting rights to people who didn't previously have them is a political decision. Reasonable people can disagree about what this decision should be, and they ought to settle their disagreement the same way any political decision should be settled by default: by arguing it out, then voting. By taking it to the courts, however, the gay marriage movement is pretending that same-sex marriage is a fundamental right already protected by America's federal and state constitutions, and all that remains is to enforce that right against its conservative violators. No persuasion and voting necessary. With this attitude, I disagree very, very strongly, even though I think gay marriage would be a good idea. The attitude is ahistorical, misguided, and arrogant.

angie wrote:
I would oppose a legal civil union between more than two consenting adults, but only for economic reasons as, obviously, large groups of people might then form such "unions" for benefits only(e.g. health care). If benefits within such a civil union were, however, restricted to only two members of the union, I would have no opposition.

I'm not sure I understand your point about "economic reasons" here. For example, suppose you had ten people, each of whom wanted to marry for health care coverage. What difference would there be economically between them forming five marriages of two people and forming one marriage of ten people? To me, it seems that you always end up with ten insured people, no matter what the number of marriages is. Could you explain to me what you think the difference is?
0 Replies
 
graffiti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 09:13 am
Thomas wrote:
angie wrote:
Well, it may not "violate" rights, but it does deny rights, and for me, that's what this is really all about.

To me, that's what this is all about too. But granting rights to people who didn't previously have them is a political decision. Reasonable people can disagree about what this decision should be, and they ought to settle their disagreement the same way any political decision should be settled by default: by arguing it out, then voting. By taking it to the courts, however, the gay marriage movement is pretending that same-sex marriage is a fundamental right already protected by America's federal and state constitutions, and all that remains is to enforce that right against its conservative violators. No persuasion and voting necessary. With this attitude, I disagree very, very strongly. It is ahistorical, misguided, and arrogant.


America's federal and state constitutions, as well as all of our laws, were intended to be 'living' documents.

As we once shamefully accepted black people as 3/5 of a person; as we once shamefully did not allow women and blacks and people who did not own land to vote; our laws were amended to right such wrongs.

It is my opinion that we have grown up enough as a nation to understand that homosexuality is not a choice and, therefore, the right to marry ought be protected for them as well.

Earlier in the thread, I wrote that civil unions for all would be best; then leave the marriage ceremonies up to the 2 people involved. Thank you, Thomas, for convincing me of that error.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 09:17 am
Thomas wrote:
In both scenarios, the Massatchusetts Supreme Court's recent decision will end up dead, and the Federal Supreme Court will have killed it.

Not so.

Thomas wrote:
So why would I go into all those procedural details when my point is about constitutional politics, not the litigation process?

Because you still got it wrong, even after explaining it. Since your point isn't about the litigation process, I won't further elaborate upon your errors. You can PM me if you want more details.

Thomas wrote:
Because the opposite of "arbitrary" isn't "just" or "correct". More like "predictable", "comprehensible", "governed by rules", or something in this spirit. A long-standing tradition, even if wrong, is still predictable. Keeping things like they are, even if they shouldn't, is a clear, simple rule that everybody understands. Hence, the conservative case against gay marriage may well be misguided, pigheaded, and dogmatic. But arbitrary it is not.

If "keeping long-standing tradition" were a universal rule, then keeping this particular long-standing tradition, despite the lack of any basis for it apart from its long-standingness, would not be arbitrary. On the other hand, choosing only one particular long-standing rule to keep, when other long-standing rules which have no other basis (such as the prohibition against miscegenation) are discarded, is arbitrary.

Thomas wrote:
I would go with Webster's definitions 2a and 2b.

Webster wrote:
2 a : a group sharing the same economic or social status <the working class> b : social rank; especially : high social rank

Ask a Marxist what "class" is and you'll get one answer. Ask Webster and you might get another. But this discussion was about "class" in a legal context; in that context, "class" means any identifiable group. So, for instance, if a law discriminated against left-handed people, then left-handed people would constitute a class.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 09:18 am
Thomas wrote:
angie wrote:
Well, it may not "violate" rights, but it does deny rights, and for me, that's what this is really all about.

To me, that's what this is all about too. But granting rights to people who didn't previously have them is a political decision. Reasonable people can disagree about what this decision should be, and they ought to settle their disagreement the same way any political decision should be settled by default: by arguing it out, then voting. By taking it to the courts, however, the gay marriage movement is pretending that same-sex marriage is a fundamental right already protected by America's federal and state constitutions, and all that remains is to enforce that right against its conservative violators. No persuasion and voting necessary. With this attitude, I disagree very, very strongly, even though I think gay marriage would be a good idea. The attitude is ahistorical, misguided, and arrogant.

This is the whole point of the checks and balances in the US government. So that 50%+1 of the population cannot oppress 50%-1 of the population. Or 95% opress 5% of the population.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 09:19 am
graffiti wrote:
America's federal and state constitutions, as well as all of our laws, were intended to be 'living' documents.

Intended by whom? Would you care to cite your source?

graffiti wrote:
Earlier in the thread, I wrote that civil unions for all would be best; then leave the marriage ceremonies up to the 2 people involved. Thank you, Thomas, for convincing me of that error.

Always glad to be of use Smile
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 09:21 am
joefromchicago wrote:
Ask a Marxist what "class" is and you'll get one answer. Ask Webster and you might get another. But this discussion was about "class" in a legal context; in that context, "class" means any identifiable group.

Source?
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graffiti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 09:22 am
Thomas wrote:
graffiti wrote:
America's federal and state constitutions, as well as all of our laws, were intended to be 'living' documents.

Intended by whom? Would you care to cite your source?


Here's but one of many:

About the Constitution
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 09:27 am
Too much sophistry here to ignore.

graffiti wrote:

America's federal and state constitutions, as well as all of our laws, were intended to be 'living' documents.
What does this mean? "Intended" by whom? The simple fact is the framers purposely made it possible, but difficult, to amend these documents.

Quote:
As we once shamefully accepted black people as 3/5 of a person; as we once shamefully did not allow women and blacks and people who did not own land to vote; our laws were amended to right such wrongs.
No argument about the slavery question, but the extension of the voting franchise to non- property holders and later to women occurred more or less during the same period throughout the Western World. This was an artifact of our social and political evolution, and I don't think it merits your use of the word "shameful". That is a distortion of the truth.

Quote:
It is my opinion that we have grown up enough as a nation to understand that homosexuality is not a choice and, therefore, the right to marry ought be protected for them as well.
This is a conjecture on your part, not an established fact. Very likely it is more or less the truth in some cases, but not at all the truth in others. What does "growing up as a nation" have to do with the adoption of false or unproven beliefs?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 09:30 am
graffiti wrote:
Thomas wrote:
graffiti wrote:
America's federal and state constitutions, as well as all of our laws, were intended to be 'living' documents.

Intended by whom? Would you care to cite your source?


Here's but one of many:

About the Constitution

Where does it say that the constitution was intended to be a living document, and by whom it was intended as such? I can see that your site describes the amendment process. But the term "living document" conventionally refers to the interpretation of the constitution, as a quick Google search will tell you. And I can't see where your source says anything about interpreting the constitution.
0 Replies
 
graffiti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 09:40 am
Thomas wrote:
Where does it say that the constitution was intended to be a living document, and by whom it was intended as such? I can see that your site describes the amendment process. But the term "living document" conventionally refers to the interpretation of the constitution, as a quick Google search will tell you. And I can't see where your source says anything about interpreting the constitution.



From the source: "Through time this document has worked, it has only been amended 27 times. The document is known as a "living document" because it can be amended. The Constitution is a document strong enough for safety and at the same time it is flexible enough to allow for freedom."

Didn't you click on the link?
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graffiti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 09:42 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Too much sophistry here to ignore.


Sorry you feel that way.

So, you want to return to the days of no voting for women, blacks and people who don't own land?

The idea of homosexuality just pushes way too many triggers for people, I guess.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 09:51 am
No, I don't wish to turn back the clock. Neither do I, however, wish to mischaracterize the truths of history and our past.

Every age makes the error of assuming its current prejudices are eternal verities. Those who insist that we accept the notion that homosexuality is, in every case, preordained by nature and beyond the possibility of choice are really no different from those who once insisted that non-property holders and women should not have the voting franchise. Both are sweeping generalities with no basis in fact.

This response is not the result of any "trigger" related to homosexuality at all. (That is more sophistry) It is instead merely the wish to see the truth beyond the prejudices of both the past and the present.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 09:53 am
graffiti wrote:
Didn't you click on the link?

I did, but my reading was sloppy becaused I looked for points about interpretation. So your question is fair -- it was my mistake. Actually, two mistakes. The Google search showed me that the term about interpretation was "living constitution", and that "living document" refers to a document whose text changes over time.

Following your definition of "living document", do I understand you correctly that you wish to amend the federal constitution to provide for gay marriage? Or do you wish to have the Supreme Court reinterpret the Fourteenth Amendment as implying the right to gay marriage on equal protection grounds?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 09:59 am
Quote:
Then you are denying polygamists rights. Isn't healthcare one of the main reason homosexuals wish to be "married"?


McG

Let me use your question, though it has a different tact and context, to bring up another way to think about homosexuality, polygamy, gay marriage, etc.

We can gain some objectivity when we conceive or understand these issues as local or cultural taboos.

For 5th century BC Athenians, there was no social taboo associated with homosexuality. For Malaysians and Indonesians, only relatively weak taboos exist, and there, bi-sexuality is not unusual nor particularly frowned upon. Navajos and many Muslim cultures exemplify the opposite - quite severe taboos against homsexuality, and in that latter case, can hold execution as a penalty for violating the taboo.

And of course, within a culture, a particular taboo can change over time from big bad to nuttin much to worry about. In America, interracial marriage is an example of this.

So how we all view homosexuality (or sexual matters generally) is dependent upon what culture and time we happened to be born into. There's a wonderful bit I've mentioned elsewhere from Michener's "Hawaii" where a very severe and rigid Calvinist missionary who was disgusted with the sexual goings-on among the Polynesians was about to post a list of all the sexual partners one was NOT to sleep with. A young Polynesian in training for the ministry advised the missionary that posting such a list was a bad idea because everyone would read it merely with an eye to finding combinations they hadn't yet thought of.

When we think of such matters in this way, one valuable gain is in no small illumination in predicting how the community will likely react when a taboo is pushed. It will react like ours is now.

Some will have a visceral 'yech!' response. Others will see a threat to the entire fabric of the culture and almost certain doom around the corner. The eyes of children will be shielded and they will be herded quickly inside. "Tradition" will be lauded, to the point perhaps of something close to worship.

And none of this will have, necessarily, an objective or rational basis. Again, interracial marriage is a fine example. Or, as a much more trivial example, one 'ought not' to wear a hat in church, at the dinner table, or in school. Ask why not, and the answers certain to attend will be of the "because I said so" or "because it just isn't done" variety.

On the other hand, there might be a truly rational basis for the taboo, or at least we can discern the possibility of that but the events are lost way back in the mist of time, eg, eating pork. In our modern world, this is no longer a health problem, but one can see how it might have been earlier. Yet the taboo remains in force within certain cultures, even when modernized.

Thinking this way about taboos also illuminates another element to the story of homosexuality in America (or Canada).

Taboo and 'profane' are essentially identical. They are really the same concept. And that concept is always held in opposition to 'sacred'. And that goes a lonnnng way to explaining why the religious or faith component in a community will so often fall on the side of 'traditional values'.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 10:18 am
blatham wrote:
We can gain some objectivity when we conceive or understand these issues as local or cultural taboos.

Good idea.

blatham wrote:
For 5th century BC Athenians, there was no social taboo associated with homosexuality. For Malaysians and Indonesians, only relatively weak taboos exist, and there, bi-sexuality is not unusual nor particularly frowned upon. Navajos and many Muslim cultures exemplify the opposite - quite severe taboos against homsexuality, and in that latter case, can hold execution as a penalty for violating the taboo.

Fine with me as far as it goes. I would add, however, that society systematically privileges married people over non-married people. There is a difference between something being taboo and it not being privileged, and this difference is important to the topic of your thread.

blatham wrote:
When we think of such matters in this way, one valuable gain is in no small illumination in predicting how the community will likely react when a taboo is pushed. It will react like ours is now.

Again, fine with me as far as it goes, but the reverse isn't necessarily true. Given your observations, you still cannot conclude that since our society reacts like it does, a taboo must be being pushed.

blatham wrote:
And none of this will have, necessarily, an objective or rational basis. Again, interracial marriage is a fine example.

Agreed, but there is nothing wrong with it. Consistency of social norms over time, and over a wide range of people, is a good in itself. It allows everybody to know what the rules are. Hence "it has always been that way" and "Everybody does it" are actually good arguments for doing something in one way rather than another. I am not sure you are appreciating this point enough.
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