The anti-gay marriage movement IS homophobic

ps...the plutarch was good, george.

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If me and my buddy move in together, and we are students, we can pose as gay and get all the benfits and save some money. weeeee

I betcha the divorce rate will be astonomicall... err. even more so.

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OutoftheSky wrote:

If me and my buddy move in together, and we are students, we can pose as gay and get all the benfits and save some money. weeeee

I betcha the divorce rate will be astonomicall... err. even more so.

Exactly what "benfits" do you suppose are going to save you all this money, pray tell?

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blatham wrote:

ps...the plutarch was good, george.

It was good for me too Bernie.

We capitalize Navy around here pal. It wasn't Chicago - it was Detroit.

However there is indeed lots of good material available. My father had been an actor before his legal and political career began and his old artist buddies would gather occasionally at the house to drink & swap stories. There was this Jewish 'artist' among them (in good years he painted murals; in bad ones he just did the walls). named Jake Betz. He had a favorite shaggy dog story about how God made the first Irishman. Lots of detail and byways to it which I have long forgotten, however I do recall it all started with Abraham's foreskin.

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You guys capitalize everything down there. It's an authoritarian tendency driven by what that's always driven by - fears of insufficiency or some anxiety in finding that other naked men initiate an unmistakeable stirring of the loins.

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blatham wrote:

You guys capitalize everything down there. It's an authoritarian tendency driven by what that's always driven by - fears of insufficiency.

It is also the Rule that would apply in German Grammar. But I am repeating You.

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lol

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Still waiting on what benefits you think you would save money from, Outofthesky.

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by the way...

snood, damned pleasing to see you again

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Thank you very much, sir. I'm pleased to be able to hear from you again, as well.

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homosexual rights

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I think the notion of any human being "tolerating" or "accepting" another is despicable. No one needs the approval of anyone else to exist. My opinion is that gay people want EXACTLY what we all want: freedom, civil rights, a family to share love, good health, a decent job, etc. Remember that catchy phrase : life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Kind of like that.

You know Angie, when I got married they didn't ask if I was Gay. So I'd say you already have the same rights. It's not the person that I reject, it's the behavior.

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Your logic is incredibly twisted. The high suicide rate among gay teens is the result of bigotry levied against them by hateful members of society. The fault lies not with the gay teens. They are innocent children trying to figure things out about themselves, about life, just like straight children. The fault lies with narrow-minded, prejudiced bigots who choose to judge and condemn them simply for who they are.

Yes thats the normal strategy. Call everyone a bigot if they don't agree with you. I don't condemn anyone. Call me crazy but I don't want my kids having straight sex for quite a while either. The topic here is about homosexuality so thats what I addressed. As for me hating teens, calm down. Even if you believe that some people are born gay, you must know that others are just experimenting. Should these be exposed to the greater dangers of homosexuality. Am I the one who hates them, or is it you. If you love them you have a pretty irresponsible way of showing it. Also I don't believe kids know who they are. Encouraging a 15yr old to declare himself gay is like letting him play with a loaded gun(no pun intended). Add to this the possibility that a child who has been sexually abused may have sexual identity problems. Do you really think homosexual experimentation will solve his problem. So please stop treating them like cannon fodder and telling me that I hate kids. Notice the name "dadothree" kids are a high priority in my life.

[

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color=blue]All the same prejudices and hateful judgments were once levied against people of color, and before them against European and Asian immigrants. Those prejudices have since been recognized as garbage. I am personally hopeful that the current prejudices felt by some people toward our fellow human beings who happen to be gay will end up in the same trash pile, where all bigotry belongs.[/color]

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Hey!! don't forget us Mexicans
Again if I was motivated by hate you would be right. But I have not asked what color your skin is or where you or your parents are from. What about a drug user? Can I discriminate against them? an alcoholic? Do I have to agree that everyones behavior is equally acceptable. Maybe pots ok but coke or acid is too wrong. Do I have to agree to your standards? If I cannot set my own, then are you not discriminating against me? Please stop being so hateful and bigoted

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dadothree

You were asked some specific questions earlier which you've failed to address. Why is that? Are you up for a careful, reasoned discussion or are you simply here to insist you are right?

Here's another question. You claim that homosexuality is 'dangerous' (meaning more dangerous than heterosexual sex). Leaving aside that you provide no evidence for that claim, let's just assume it is correct. Is your argument that any personally dangerous livestyle or activity ought to be subject to controls by the state? For example, mountain climbing or buying a Porche? Why would homosexuality be different from those cases? In terms of disease, shaking hands and kissing are more dangerous than not doing those things. Ought we to legally disallow kissing and handshaking?

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Again if I was motivated by hate you would be right. But I have not asked what color your skin is or where you or your parents are from. What about a drug user? Can I discriminate against them? an alcoholic? Do I have to agree that everyones behavior is equally acceptable. Maybe pots ok but coke or acid is too wrong. Do I have to agree to your standards? If I cannot set my own, then are you not discriminating against me? Please stop being so hateful and bigoted

There's rather a lot of foggy thinking here.

First, one doesn't have to be motivated by hate to be bigoted...from American Heritage, "One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ". Intolerance is enough. A person in a same race marriage may be intolerant of interracial marriage, for example, yet without hating the individuals involved. That's bigotry, by definition.

Second, and this is the big logical problem you face...you suggest that angie makes some incursion on your rights through arguing that you ought not to impose your sexual preferences on others.

Note that she is not saying "You, Dadothree, can only be married if you are in a same sex relationship." That would limit your rights, yes?

She is saying, "If I am in a same sex relationship, what gives you the right, dadothree, to limit my right to marry as I choose?"

.

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homosexual rights

blatham wrote:

dadothree

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You don't have to settle on one. Give me three or five you rely upon. I note that elsewhere you mention the 'inerrancy of the bible'. You could include that.

blatham
I get a lot of information from the family research council, focus on the family, american family assoc. various talk radio shows, and some from network news. and of course the bible

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I gather you refer above to the the United Way's decision to drop funding due to the Boy Scouts membership policy (ban on gay people and on atheists). Earlier in your nation's history, agencies and individuals decided to cease giving funding to organizations which prohibited membership of jews and colored people. Of course, this was the work of the jew agenda and the black agenda.

i don't accept your propaganda. I believe that homosexuality is an immoral behavior. Being black is not a behavior.

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You imply that homosexuality is not 'normal'. Please define that term. Homosexuality is found in all cultures, in all time periods, in many other primate species (baboon males of the same troop, when greeting each other, reach out and give the other fella's penis a tug) and

Your body was not designed for homosexual activity. Therefore it is abnormal. Even if you believe you evolved from apes, it did not do so through homosexuality, so again it is abnormal. Murder , rape , and all kinds of other behaviors are found throughout history and all societies. Do you claim they are normal behaviors?

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homosexual behaviors are extremely common throughout the animal
kingdom.

Some animals eat their young. Do you advocate this as well?

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Re 'tolerance training'...could you please link us to, or provide copy from, any such course so that we might adjudicate whether you have this right or not. Do such courses involve gay matters only, or other social matters such as race, gender, etc?

sorry I didn't know that I would be tested on the information, so I didn't save it. I probably got it from Focus on the family or talk radio. Is it your contention that tolerance training does not occur? Or are you simply pretending to not know any better.

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You refer to homosexual propaganda in schools. Could you please quote some, with links so we might verify your claims?

Pflag says so on their website. I don't think you could be this unaware.

You mention also suicide rates. Please forward links to the studies that support your claim.

Again see the pflag website. this is pretty common knowledge. If you are truly unaware of this, you should try to diversify your sources of information. I think your real goal here is to send me off chasing statistics. sorry I'm not gonna run around trying to measure the earth just to prove its not flat. all these things are well known to anyone who is interested.
dadothree

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Quote:

blatham
I get a lot of information from the family research council, focus on the family, american family assoc. various talk radio shows, and some from network news. and of course the bible

How did we all know that?

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I gather you refer above to the the United Way's decision to drop funding due to the Boy Scouts membership policy (ban on gay people and on atheists). Earlier in your nation's history, agencies and individuals decided to cease giving funding to organizations which prohibited membership of jews and colored people. Of course, this was the work of the jew agenda and the black agenda.

i don't accept your propaganda. I believe that homosexuality is an immoral behavior. Being black is not a behavior.

Your personal beliefs are probably insufficient criteria for incursions on other citizens' rights, constitutional principles trumping your notion that homosexuals are less equal or that blacks are inferior.

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You imply that homosexuality is not 'normal'. Please define that term. Homosexuality is found in all cultures, in all time periods, in many other primate species (baboon males of the same troop, when greeting each other, reach out and give the other fella's penis a tug) and

Your body was not designed for homosexual activity. Therefore it is abnormal. Even if you believe you evolved from apes, it did not do so through homosexuality, so again it is abnormal. Murder , rape , and all kinds of other behaviors are found throughout history and all societies. Do you claim they are normal behaviors?

Your body was not designed for flight. Therefore flying is abnormal. Your body was not designed for a prostate examination. Therefore prostate examinations are abnormal.

Evolution, or procreation, remains uninfluenced via marriage between couples where one partner is incapable of producing offspring. Therefore such unions are abnormal.

You switch definitons of 'normal' now to mean "moral...according to my personal notions of what is moral".

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homosexual behaviors are extremely common throughout the animal
kingdom.

Some animals eat their young. Do you advocate this as well?

Again, you conflate two entirely different things, and will insist they are the same. "Natural" or "normal" will be defined according to your personal moral ideas. Neither word means what you say it means. What you are doing, though you won't have the intellectual courage to admit it, is attempting to give your personal moral judgement the imprinteur of objective fact. That's the Naturalist Fallacy.

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Re 'tolerance training'...could you please link us to, or provide copy from, any such course so that we might adjudicate whether you have this right or not. Do such courses involve gay matters only, or other social matters such as race, gender, etc?

sorry I didn't know that I would be tested on the information, so I didn't save it. I probably got it from Focus on the family or talk radio. Is it your contention that tolerance training does not occur? Or are you simply pretending to not know any better.

Of course you'll be tested. Alternatively, you can consider that you're standing on a rock in the middle of the desert talking to no one. You are pushing for us to accept certain ideas or values, and why should any of us accept your claims or bother listening to you at all if you can't provide anything other than your opinion? An opinion which, we'll note, suggests all the rest of us ought to agree to defining a whole class of citizens as immoral and therefore legislating against them. Not only do you have to provide evidence (good evidence, and you could valuably think about what that might be) but careful conceptual discrimination as well. Tolerance for religious notions...a bad thing? Tolerance for different values...a bad thing?

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You refer to homosexual propaganda in schools. Could you please quote some, with links so we might verify your claims?

Pflag says so on their website. I don't think you could be this unaware.

You mention also suicide rates. Please forward links to the studies that support your claim.

Again see the pflag website. this is pretty common knowledge. If you are truly unaware of this, you should try to diversify your sources of information. I think your real goal here is to send me off chasing statistics. sorry I'm not gonna run around trying to measure the earth just to prove its not flat. all these things are well known to anyone who is interested.
dadothree

No, I know from where you get your information. I have no goal to send you off chasing statistics. My goal is to demonstrate that your claims that such constitutes 'knowledge' is entirely questionable. I can say any number of things about 'knowledge' available in book X or at site Y, but anyone listening to me would be a fool to simply believe it. For example, divorce rates are higher in 'red states' than in 'blue states'. Rates of teenage unwed pregnancy are higher among evangelical Christians in Texas than among atheists living in the Boston area. What's true?

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And you've left questions from earlier unanswered as well.

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homosexual immorality

Quote:

blatham wrote:
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blatham
I get a lot of information from the family research council, focus on the family, american family assoc. various talk radio shows, and some from network news. and of course the bible

How did we all know that?

You imply that this information may be wrong, but you give no evidence either.

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i don't accept your propaganda. I believe that homosexuality is an immoral behavior. Being black is not a behavior.

Your personal beliefs are probably insufficient criteria for incursions on other citizens' rights, constitutional principles trumping your notion that homosexuals are less equal or that blacks are inferior.

First of all I never said that blacks are inferior. I believe that all people are equal. Our behaviors are are another matter. If I help feed the poor, then I am doing good. If I steal or cheat someone then I am doing wrong. If the same person can do good and evil, then the difference must be the behavior. So as A christian I believe that we are all loved by God equally. He does not like my sins anymore than yours or anyone else's

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You imply that homosexuality is not 'normal'. Please define that term. Homosexuality is found in all cultures, in all time periods, in many other primate species (baboon males of the same troop, when greeting each other, reach out and give the other fella's penis a tug) and

Your body was not designed for homosexual activity. Therefore it is abnormal. Even if you believe you evolved from apes, it did not do so through homosexuality, so again it is abnormal. Murder , rape , and all kinds of other behaviors are found throughout history and all societies. Do you claim they are normal behaviors?

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Your body was not designed for flight. Therefore flying is abnormal. Your body was not designed for a prostate examination. Therefore prostate examinations are abnormal.

I agree, that our bodies were not designed for flight. Anyone stepping out of an airplane at altitude will prove this. As for the prostate exam, again I agree. I have not seen to many people born with a scope in their bum.
So we seem to be in agreement. Flying , prostate exams, and homosexuality are not normal.

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Evolution, or procreation, remains uninfluenced via marriage between couples where one partner is incapable of producing offspring. Therefore such unions are abnormal.

Procreation is a potential result of a natural or normal act. The act is normal because our bodies either evolved or were designed for this specific purpose. When procreation does not result the sexual act is still natural. It is only the result that has changed. So one could argue that the act was unsuccessful, but not abnormal.

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My goal is to demonstrate that your claims that such constitutes 'knowledge' is entirely questionable. I can say any number of things about 'knowledge' available in book X or at site Y, but anyone listening to me would be a fool to simply believe it. What's true?

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You're right, this applies to information on both sides of the debate. When two statements/ books/ studies contradict each other one of them must be false. Choosing to believe based only on which is more to ones liking may be easier, but it will also likely be wrong. To determine what is true we should use logic. For example: Much of the heterosexual activity that occurs is the result of sexual experimentation. Some of these participants will experiment with homosexuality as well.
Do you disagree with anything so far?
It is logical to believe that (at a minimum) some who are engaging in homosexual activity were not born that way. They are doing so by choice.
If this theory is true then there should be evidence of EX-GAYS
SEE [URL=lovewonout.com]love won out[/URL]
or
[URL=exodus-international.org]exodus international[/URL]

If your looking for the truth, check it out.
If you just want to recruit, reply with propaganda
dadothree

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Re: homosexual rights
"You know Angie, when I got married they didn't ask if I was Gay. So I'd say you already have the same rights. "

Yes I do; of course I am not gay. Gay Americans do not have the same rights, and to suggest they do is entirely disingenuous.

"It's not the person I reject; it's the behavior."

So you think it's ok for someone to BE homosexual, just as long as he or she remains celibate. Who the hell are you to decide that someone else ought to remain celibate?

"Even if you believe that some people are born gay, you must know that others are just experimenting......"

Whether or not someone decides to "experiment" is his or her business, not yours.

"Am I the one who hates them, or is it you. If you love them you have a pretty irresponsible way of showing it......."

As you can't argue your points rationally, I'm not at all surprised by the ad-hominen stuff. I do not decide to "love" or "hate" a fellow human being based upon his or her sexual orientation, or personal sexual behavior.

"Also I don't believe kids know who they are. Encouraging a 15yr old to declare himself gay is like letting him play with a loaded gun..."

Encouraging a child, at any age, to be who he or she is is good parenting. Do you know any gay people personally ? Most gay people knew they were gay at a very early age, often many years before puberty. Attempting to suppress it and deny it, because of fear of societal or parental judgments, must be a living hell for kids.

"What about a drug user? Can I discriminate against them? an alcoholic?"

You sure can. People choose to use drugs, and if you do not approve of drug use, that's your choice as well. People do not choose their sexual orientation. I did not choose to be straight. Did you? Could you have chosen to be gay instead? Didn't think so. Doesn't work that way. So, to discriminate against someone on the basis of sexual orientation is, therefore, in my opinion, BIGOTED. To attempt to deny someone his or her civil rights on the basis of sexual orientation is BIGOTED. And guess what? I choose to discriminate against bigots.

Speaking of choice, Blatham may choose to continue dialoguing with you, but I choose otherwise.

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Well, 22 pages later and I'm just going to jump in.

Yes, the anti-gay marriage movement is indeed homophobic.

My suggestion: a separation of church and state.

Any 2 people, whether they are gay or straight, ought be allowed to register a civil (governmental) union with absolutely equal benefits and rights to those who are now able to marry.

Should any of those couples joined in civil union wish to marry as well, let them go to any church or synagogue that already does so (and many, many do...no mosque will do that).

Keep the government out of our bedrooms and to heck with all hidden agendas!

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No. Some people who believe gays should not marry are homophobic. Let's try to keep this straight (no pun intended there).

The idea of marriage between a man and a woman is not homophobic.

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McGentrix wrote:

The idea of marriage between a man and a woman is not homophobic.

Yes, it is. <neener, neener> Laughing

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The anti-gay marriage movement IS homophobic

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