The anti-gay marriage movement IS homophobic

Because the "majority" is clearly unjust and prejudiced.

I wonder if you would have been articulating these same arguments re civil rights for blacks in the south in the fifties and sixties?

I suspect so.

And it just keeps getting more Orwellian. The scary part is that the Orwellianistas don't even realize it.

I grew up in the fifities in the Northeast, the majority of white Americans were clearly against Civil Rights. However,there was no organized large anti-black movement like there is an an anti-gay movement today. What happened is the whites remained passive while the vocal minority, blacks and white liberal sympathizers were able to push through the agenda. The American electorate would never have voted for equality if a national ballot had been offered.

That said, there needs to be a powerful political voice to finally achieve equality for LGBTs but it doesn't have to be a majority. When it comes to rights, majority rule does not apply. Read the friggin' Constitution, for chrissakes.

Like the tradition of only male property holders being allowed to vote?

Like the tradition of owning slaves?

Like the tradition of marriage only between those of the same race or religion?

Like the tradition of having separate facilities for blacks and whites?

Like the tradition of blacks riding in the back of the bus?

Like the tradition of minorities holding all the menial jobs?

Like the tradition of men being paid more than women?

You know where you can stick your tradition, don't you?

Why not? Seems Orwellian to me.

Okay, you guys just keep repeating the same straw man irrelevent comparisons and slinging insults at me. When any of you care to actually dispute the argument I have made with any clarity, I'll return. Until then, this very circular argument is simply boring.

For those who are especially slow, the argument is that the marriage laws in each state apply evenly and without exception to every person/citizen as it is written. No single citizen is treated any differently than any other citizen is treated. There is no discrimination in the law as it is currently written.

Someone explain to FF what a strawman argument is as well as what "newspeak" is.

Repeating the same lie over and again will never make it true. It's still a lie. And you should drop what you are doing, go to the libraray and check out 1984 and read it.

This is classic Orwell:

There is no discrimination in the law as it is currently written

There is no discrimination in the law as it is currently written

There is no discrimination in the law as it is currently written

There is no discrimination in the law as it is currently written

There is no discrimination in the law as it is currently written

There is no discrimination in the law as it is currently written

There is no discrimination in the law as it is currently written

There is no discrimination in the law as it is currently written

There is no discrimination in the law as it is currently written

There is no discrimination in the law as it is currently written

There is no discrimination in the law as it is currently written...

A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him.
George Orwell

Advertising is the rattling of a stick inside a swill bucket.
George Orwell

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
George Orwell

All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome.
George Orwell

All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.
George Orwell

At 50, everyone has the face he deserves.
George Orwell

Big Brother is watching you.
George Orwell

But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought.
George Orwell

But the thing that I saw in your face no power can disinherit: No bomb that ever burst shatters the crystal spirit.
George Orwell

Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.
George Orwell

Early in life I had noticed that no event is ever correctly reported in a newspaper.
George Orwell

Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.
George Orwell

For a creative writer possession of the "truth" is less important than emotional sincerity.
George Orwell

Four legs good, two legs bad.
George Orwell

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
George Orwell

Happiness can exist only in acceptance.
George Orwell

He was an embittered atheist, the sort of atheist who does not so much disbelieve in God as personally dislike Him.
George Orwell

I sometimes think that the price of liberty is not so much eternal vigilance as eternal dirt.
George Orwell

If a man meets with injustice, it is not required that he shall not be roused to meet it; but if he is angry after he has had time to think upon it, that is sinful. The flame is not wring, but the coals are.
George Orwell

If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
George Orwell

If you have embraced a creed which appears to be free from the ordinary dirtiness of politics - a creed from which you yourself cannot expect to draw any material advantage - surely that proves that you are in the right?
George Orwell

If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever.
George Orwell

In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell

In every one of those little stucco boxes there's some poor bastard who's never free except when he's fast asleep and dreaming that he's got the boss down the bottom of a well and is bunging lumps of coal at him.
George Orwell

In our age there is no such thing as 'keeping out of politics.' All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred and schizophrenia.
George Orwell

In our time political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible.
George Orwell

In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act.
George Orwell

It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it; consequently, the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning.
George Orwell

It is also true that one can write nothing readable unless one constantly struggles to efface one's own personality. Good prose is like a windowpane.
George Orwell

Liberal: a power worshipper without power.
George Orwell

Man is the only creature that consumes without producing. He does not give milk, he does not lay eggs, he is too weak to pull the plough, he cannot run fast enough to catch rabbits. Yet he is lord of all the animals.
George Orwell

Men are only as good as their technical development allows them to be.
George Orwell

Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
George Orwell

Most people get a fair amount of fun out of their lives, but on balance life is suffering, and only the very young or the very foolish imagine otherwise.
George Orwell

Nationalism is power hunger tempered by self-deception.
George Orwell

No advance in wealth, no softening of manners, no reform or revolution has ever brought human equality a millimeter nearer.
George Orwell

No one can look back on his schooldays and say with truth that they were altogether unhappy.
George Orwell

Not to expose your true feelings to an adult seems to be instinctive from the age of seven or eight onwards.
George Orwell

On the whole, human beings want to be good, but not too good, and not quite all the time.
George Orwell

One can love a child, perhaps, more deeply than one can love another adult, but it is rash to assume that the child feels any love in return.
George Orwell

One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes a revolution in order to establish a dictatorship.
George Orwell

One of the effects of a safe and civilized life is an immense oversensitiveness which makes all the primary emotions somewhat disgusting. Generosity is as painful as meanness, gratitude as hateful as ingratitude.
George Orwell

Part of the reason for the ugliness of adults, in a child's eyes, is that the child is usually looking upwards, and few faces are at their best when seen from below.
George Orwell

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
George Orwell

Political chaos is connected with the decay of language... one can probably bring about some improvement by starting at the verbal end.
George Orwell

Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.
George Orwell

Probably the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing-fields of Eton, but the opening battles of all subsequent wars have been lost there.
George Orwell

Progress and reaction have both turned out to be swindles. Seemingly, there is nothing left but quietism - robbing reality of its terrors by simply submitting to it.
George Orwell

Prolonged, indiscriminate reviewing of books is a quite exceptionally thankless, irritating and exhausting job. It not only involves praising trash but constantly inventing reactions towards books about which one has no spontaneous feeling whatever.
George Orwell

Saints should always be judged guilty until they are proved innocent.
George Orwell

Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war minus the shooting.
George Orwell

Serious sport is war minus the shooting.
George Orwell

Society has always seemed to demand a little more from human beings than it will get in practice.
George Orwell

Sometimes the first duty of intelligent men is the restatement of the obvious.
George Orwell

The best books... are those that tell you what you know already.
George Orwell

The Catholic and the Communist are alike in assuming that an opponent cannot be both honest and intelligent.
George Orwell

The crowds in the big towns, with their mild, knobby faces, their bad teeth and gentle manners solid breakfasts and gloomy Sundays, smoky towns and winding roads, green fields and red pillar boxes.
George Orwell

The essence of being human is that one does not seek perfection.
George Orwell

The essential act of war is destruction, not necessarily of human lives, but of the products of human labor.
George Orwell

The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one's real and one's declared aims, one turns, as it were, instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish squirting out ink.
George Orwell

The main motive for "nonattachment" is a desire to escape from the pain of living, and above all from love, which, sexual or non-sexual, is hard work.
George Orwell

The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.
George Orwell

The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.
George Orwell

The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it.
George Orwell

The very concept of objective truth is fading out of the world. Lies will pass into history.
George Orwell

There are some ideas so wrong that only a very intelligent person could believe in them.
George Orwell

There is hardly such a thing as a war in which it makes no difference who wins. Nearly always one side stands more of less for progress, the other side more or less for reaction.
George Orwell

To a surprising extent the war-lords in shining armour, the apostles of martial virtues, tend not to die fighting when the time comes. History is full of ignominious getaways by the great and famous.
George Orwell

To an ordinary human being, love means nothing if it does not mean loving some people more than others.
George Orwell

To walk through the ruined cities of Germany is to feel an actual doubt about the continuity of civilization.
George Orwell

War against a foreign country only happens when the moneyed classes think they are going to profit from it.
George Orwell

War is a way of shattering to pieces... materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable and... too intelligent.
George Orwell

War is a way of shattering to pieces... materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses... too intelligent.
George Orwell

War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.
George Orwell

War is war. The only good human being is a dead one.
George Orwell

We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men.
George Orwell

We may find in the long run that tinned food is a deadlier weapon than the machine-gun.
George Orwell

We of the sinking middle class may sink without further struggles into the working class where we belong, and probably when we get there it will not be so dreadful as we feared, for, after all, we have nothing to lose.
George Orwell

What can you do against the lunatic who is more intelligent than yourself, who gives your arguments a fair hearing and then simply persists in his lunacy?
George Orwell

Whatever is funny is subversive, every joke is ultimately a custard pie... a dirty joke is a sort of mental rebellion.
George Orwell

When it comes to the pinch, human beings are heroic.
George Orwell

Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.
George Orwell

Whoever is winning at the moment will always seem to be invincible.
George Orwell

Winston could not definitely remember a time when his country had not been at war.
George Orwell

Of course this is your opinion. Yet, to extend you thought to slavery tells me you did not read my entire post or are incapable of accepting the fact that you argument is not convincing enough to force a change in our traditions.

That's ok, ignorance like yours can be changed with education and patience.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Funny, my copy of the United States Constituiton doesn't say a single thing about rights being linked to tradition. Talk about appalling ignorance!

All men are created equal, except when tradition dictates otherwise.

All men are created equal, except when tradition dictates otherwise.

All men are created equal, except when tradition dictates otherwise.

All men are created equal, except when tradition dictates otherwise.

All men are created equal, except when tradition dictates otherwise.

All men are created equal, except when tradition dictates otherwise.

All men are created equal, except when tradition dictates otherwise.

All men are created equal, except when tradition dictates otherwise.

All men are created equal, except when tradition dictates otherwise.

All men are created equal, except when tradition dictates otherwise.

You see, Foxfyre, there's this thing called an "analogy." It's when you take two things that are not identical, but which are similar in some relevant or significant fashion. It's like ... but no, I can see that would be a waste of time.


You have been told, repeatedly, how a law that applies equally can still discriminate. It's not that you haven't been told, it's that you haven't been listening.

Fox wrote:


I don't normally say this, but you lose the argument.

You have completely failed to answer any of the questions I have posed to you. You dodged them earlier, and now that you have been pressed on them you have withdrawn from the field rather than answer simple questions which should have clear answers if your proposition is true, which it isn't.

Pathetic, really, but I didn't expect anything more from you. At least Woiyo had the balls to try and make an argument. It turns my stomach to see such self-righteous cowardice.

I will keep asking the same questions over, and over, and over again, and until someone from your side can come up with an answer to them, then there is no point in posting anything further:

What harm is done to pre-existing, and new, straight marriages, by allowing gays to marry?

What harm is done to society by allowing gays to marry?

On what grounds is it constitutionally acceptable to bar Gays from marrying?

Your argument is a false one. Gays are treated differently than straights, Fox. The position that you have is pretty bigoted, as it seems that you don't accept the fact that gays love and wish to be with other gays, and not with people of the opposite sex. This is so obvious to every other poster here, that I know that it must be to you as well; and you just don't give a damn. That's what this boils down to; you just don't care if gay folks are happy or not, and don't feel it is neccessary to provide actual reasons for denying them rights. The sign of a true bigot.

Cycloptichorn

Bravo, Cyclo!! Though your points have been expressed by you and others over and over again, I believe your last paragraph nails down Foxfrye's illogical posts perfectly.

Lol...and terrible reading skills like yours can be fixed through remedial reading, we hope.


You might, if able to read, note that I am referring NOT to slavery, but to the fight for civil rights in the late fifties and sixties (and, actually, well before that.....and often against "christians" who similarly managed to find fodder for their irrational prejudices in their bible, too.....except for those who found fodder for fairness and justice for all in the same book, but there you go) against just such "what I like to see is the same as fairness and justice and what is familiar to me is just manifestly holy and natural and good" capricious and and nonsensical justifications for manifest injustice.








Fox...we acually DO "get" your simple argument....just consider it utterly nonsensical in its failure to actually address the issue.

Oh I've been listening. I don't dispute that a law that applies equally can still discriminate. I do dispute that marriage laws discriminate.

A better analogy would be to use Roe v Wade. Under that law which is applied pretty consistently across the country, a small Catholic community that is absolutely horrified and distressed and miserable at the idea of abortions being performed is not allowed to outlaw them. Is that discriminatory?

Or if you like the bathroom analogy, in many places men are not allowed to use the women's restrooms and the women are not allowed to use the men's. Men and women are generally not required to shower together or sleep together when the situation requires showers and sleeping accommodations. Is this discriminatory?

If the company rule is no personal calls other than for emergencies and I am absolutely miserable not being able to make a personal call now and then, is this discriminatory?

If I can't make the requirement for age, physical fitness, height, weight, etc. that might be required for me to do something, should I be able to demand that the requirements be changed to accommodate what I want? Is that discriminatory?

You didn't answer any of my questions, Fox. I'll repost them for you here, for your convienence.

What harm is done to pre-existing, and new, straight marriages, by allowing gays to marry?

What harm is done to society by allowing gays to marry?

On what grounds is it constitutionally acceptable to bar Gays from marrying?

Until you can answer those questions, or even one of them, your posts on this topic are pretty much meaningless.

I actually read back through all 200 pages of this thread, and found that noone, not you, Fox, nor anyone else, has answered these questions which are crucial to the debate. This is pretty conclusive evidence that one side is wrong.

Cycloptichorn

That is a separate issue and a separate question. I want the definition of marriage to remain unchanged. No matter how many stupid comments, analogies, accusations, insults, or whatever else is shoveled out, until you can show how the marriage laws as they currently exist discriminate against anybody, its all moot so far as I'm concerned.

You might start with showing how it would be a bad thing to make a new law that takes in everybody who wants it who for whatever reason cannot or does not wish to marry or maybe they just like the rules that go with the new law.

If your club takes in anybody or everybody who wants in, but has rules and regulations that I don't like, then the problem is not with your club but with me if I don't choose to join.

Meanwhile I'll stick to the one issue of discrimination. The rest of you are certainly free to debate anything else that you want.