Rape debate

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We are living in a society that seems to have become, dare I say, overly obsessed with talking about rape and rape culture, and I speak as a 40 year old feminist woman. According to current definitions I have been sexually assaulted twice and raped twice. The sexual assaults (one digital, one oral, both violent) I of course would have labelled as being forced at the time, but I was 15 and 16 and saw it as one of the bumps along the growing-up road. One was with a stranger in a nightclub and one was with a guy I had just started dating. I felt violated and hurt for a while but I swear the effects only lasted for a couple of weeks and I haven't paid much thought to them since. I love sex.

The first so called "rape" was at university when I was dragged (or pulled by the hand at least) into bushes along a canal by a guy I'd been kissing passionately at one of those 50p a shot student nights. I was so out of it that I didn't try to push him off or say no but I definitely didn't want it to be happening. I felt violated and quiet for about two weeks then got over it. I didn't think it was rape because I didn't say no or struggle, but I was semi-comatose.

The second was when I was at an after party in someone's hotel room, sleeping on the sofa while a couple was in the bedroom. One of their friends came in late and got on the sofa and forced himself on me. Now this is the really weird bit that I would never say unless anonymous.. I said no a number of times and physically tried to push him off me, but once he'd started my body /hormones responded and I actually willingly went along with it. Afterwards - again - I felt violated. But I've always wondered how that works or is seen? This is something I've never heard anyone admitting to. Has anyone ever had a physical sexual response to enforced, non-consensual sex and then started actively participating? Confused... Personally I think we need to start getting honest about the different levels and blurred lines surrounding rape. Would love the views of feminists as well as others.

I know this might seem really un-feminist of me but I do feel like the definition of rape has changed in my lifetime, and also the hysteria about it. Calling people "rape survivors" and describing themselves as being changed forever by it. Yes it's nasty but what I experienced was poles apart from being violently assaulted and screaming for help throughout. I have absolute sympathy for that, but why should we use the same word for that and my experiences? I'm genuinely interested in your views, not deliberately being controversial.

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@Seeker123,

I would like to add that in my personal experience, being hurt emotionally or mentally is far more damaging and long-lasting than being raped. Can we at least have a discussion about this?

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@Seeker123,

In situations where everyone is equally drunk, I would hesitate to blame the guy for rape if sex occurs in a situation where consent is not clearly expressed.

From your description, I do not think the guy was equally drunk. I would count all of the incidents you describe as rape.

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@Seeker123,

I am not quite sure what the argument is here. I define the term "rape" simply as non-consensual sex. You are right that how our society defines the word "rape" is changing. But that is true of lots of words. There are lots of ideas that all understand now in a way that is quite different from our grandparents.

Being dragged into the bushes for sex I didn't want while I was too drunk to say "no" would be pretty traumatic for me. I certainly consider this to be a clear example of rape (since there is no consent given).

If I tried to push someone off of me, but they forced themselves on me anyway is another clear example of rape. Again, the issue is that there was no consent.

The idea that it isn't "rape" if you "enjoyed" it is particularly troubling. There is a huge issue for male survivors of rape that men are always supposed to enjoy sex (particularly if the perpetrator is a woman). In truth, rape is as traumatic for male victims as it is for women... but it is more difficult for male victims because society doesn't accept that they are victims.

I am not really sure what the "debate" is. There is a clear definition of "rape" that I think works very well. If there is sex where one party doesn't consent, then it is rape.

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@oralloy,

Thank you for replying. What are your views on enjoying the sex half way through it being forced upon you? This sounds so shameful to even type anonymously and possibly incendury ammunition for rapists but we need to talk about shameful feelings so I genuinely would like to know how this might be viewed, both but our society and by the law.

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@maxdancona,

Thank you. I honestly appreciate your point of view and it does seem to simplify things. I agree that our descriptions and views of the world and humanity are in a constant state of flux, but I also believe that most of us are blinded by cultural myths and traditions. (I refer to the book Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari).

Stating that my experiences in todays agreed definitions and laws would both be described as rape, doesn't in reality affect how I experienced them. I think my concern is more to do with achieving a better balance in terms of how we label and rate injurious behaviour. I once had my head smashed against a brick wall by a drunk girl after I confronted her boyfriend about being verbally abusive to a shop assistant. She got community service. I got a lifelong scar on my forehead. This affected me far more than the previously discussed experiences. Why does rape get people so many years in prison and physical assault that causes hospitalisation and temporary PTSD not?

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@Seeker123,

Seeker123 wrote:

Thank you for replying. What are your views on enjoying the sex half way through it being forced upon you? This sounds so shameful to even type anonymously and possibly incendury ammunition for rapists but we need to talk about shameful feelings so I genuinely would like to know how this might be viewed, both but our society and by the law.

If the victim's body responds sexually to the rape and causes sensations of pleasure, it is absolutely still rape.

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@oralloy,

Thank you. That has never been explained to me before. This has been really helpful to discuss this. I appreciate it.

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@Seeker123,

We as a society have to define crimes and decide (as a society) what the appropriate punishments are. In our democratic society we do this through our legislatures.

You are right of course, that our laws don't exactly match the experience of every individual. I don't know how they could. We need broadly accepted social standards enforced by law. We hope that through a democratic process we can arrive at a set of laws that work well for most people in society. Of course, this isn't a perfect process.

I am not sure I agree with the phrase "blinded by cultural myths and traditions". We have cultural values that most of us share. I think we accept them because we need to in order to have a functioning society. I am not sure that this is the same as being "blinded".

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@maxdancona,

I agree. We need certain cultural values (some philosophers would call them collective myths) in order to function as a society. In other words we need these cultural givens in order to run our civilisations. The difficult truth to swallow is that this propensity we have as humans to be agreeable to cultural rules in order to maintain order has some extremely grizzly baggage, not to mention current examples of its dark side around the world. Slavery, the Indian Caste System, Chaupadi - the Nepalese tradition (founded on menstruation being evil and unclean) that sees women having to sleep outside in the cold and have no physical contact with their family for the duration of their periods. These things happen because of collective cultural ideas. This is what I mean by being blinded. Some of our ideas are good, some are bad. The ability to be aware of our filters and to take them off sometimes to look at the world unframed by our culture is both scary but necessary.

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@Seeker123,

Quote:

The ability to be aware of our filters and to take them off sometimes to look at the world unframed by our culture is both scary but necessary.

I think I disagree with you, although this seems awfully off topic.

I don't agree that it is necessary to look at the world unframed by culture. I don't know what "necessary" means in this context. Why is it necessary? Many human beings have lived perfectly full, decent lives where they successfully reproduce without every considering anything outside of their cultural context.

Is it even possible to look at the world unframed by culture? I don't even know what that means. We have mathematics that some people claim exists without culture, although not everyone even agrees with that.

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