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Anti-Muslim Dutch politicians in hiding after death threats

 
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 10:42 am
nimh, I thought your response was incredibly balanced and NOT prickly. Credit to JW for coming back in kind.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 10:55 am
Bembelpetzer, your post exemplifies, no offence, one of the reasons why I get so prickly.

You write about "the real situation of the Islamic female, even here in Europe" as being "no contacts with people outside the house, outside the own cultural (and often language) background", et cetera.

I mean, this happens, yes, but to suggest that this is the norm is ridiculous. You live in Germany, you must know some Muslim women, don't you? I am sitting in the library now, there's a Muslim woman at the table here reading the newspaper. Next week I'll be returning to my work, where several of my colleagues are Muslim women - one of them wears a headscarf, the others don't, and I can tell you, Saaliha for example is among the boldest and loudest of my colleagues. Every day in summer there's groups of teens hanging outside my front door, and they include Moroccan girls too, un-headscarved and flirting with the guys - just yesterday I re-read a "what made you smile today" post in which I recounted how one of 'em asked my number "because I think you're an attractive man" - she was joking of course, taking the piss, but still - this is not the image of scared, intimidated Muslim slaves of sexual oppression.

That's my main problem with posts like yours - I look around me, and what I see just doesn't fit with the blanket stereotypes spread around in such press articles. And its true, " Elsewhere outside Europe, you see stonings, circumcisions at birth, and the obligation to wear the burka" - but unlike what seems to be suggested, none of these things are the norm - they are all, often regionally-based, exceptions.

Now I realise that out of pure defensiveness, I run the risk of falling into a trap of my own: glossing over or ignoring the very real excesses. That I get so annoyed by yet another person going on about those poor or backward oppressed Muslim women when what I see is lots of articulate and self-confident young Moroccan women, that I tend to go, "no that's bull that doesn't happen at all", when it does. This is the trap I fell in with my first answer to JW just now, claiming female circumcision only happens in the Horn of Africa when it turns out to be much more wide-spread. Apparently it is very difficult to succeed in recognizing the scale of abuses without reverting to some blanket stereotype for all Muslims.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 10:56 am
Thanks Soz. It felt like I was being overly defensive, but I guess I would feel like that, with all this **** going on around here (in NL I mean, not on A2K)
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 10:57 am
Well, I started to come back with something considerably more prickly than what you wrote, then decided to go the deep breaths route...
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 11:38 am
Of assassination plans and worse

The men who were arrested violently in The Hague the other day, I wrote yesterday, were planning to kill two parliamentarians - and the MPs they had in mind were, predictably, Geert Wilders and Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Curiously, the two men, one of whom was called Jason, were recent converts - they had only converted to Islam a few years ago.

In Utrecht, a suspect was released after insufficient evidence was presented that the things he talked about in phone conversations tapped by the intelligence service were more than bragging. He had told an Iraqi man about how 50 suicide bombers could succeed in blowing up a large city in Holland. Not entirely reassuringly, Hassan O. claimed he was just saying things in an attempt to deal with his radical Muslim flatmate.

Another mosque and church on fire

Meanwhile, tonight a (wooden) mosque burnt down in the small town of Helden, in the South. It was set on fire the night before the Muslim "Suikerfeest" (end of the Ramadan celebration, what is that in English?) - as one congregator said, "it's like burning a church on Christmas Eve". The police suspects a group of local youths, "the Lonsdale youths" (named after the brand of clothing they wear), who were earlier apprehended for racist graffiti. They are said to be "xenophobic", but not "right-wing extremist".

Lemme observe here that this mosque, like the Islamic school that was burnt down in the same region earlier, is located in a small provincial town. So much for the theory that the arson attacks are the result of frustrated Dutch victims of the multiculturalisation of the large cities … around those parts, the number of Muslims is relatively negligeable, after all.

In Heerlen on the other hand, fire broke out in a Christian high school after two molotov cocktails were thrown inside.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 12:47 pm
Comparing headlines - and versions of reality

To give you some idea of the divisions in this country, let me compare two newspapers' front pages. The Amsterdam newspaper Het Parool this Saturday led with the headline "Local politicians threatened". The story notes: "Ever more provincial and local politicians are threatened and now consider stepping down. Their addresses are spread over the Internet. The threats come from extreme right circles, but also from individuals disappointed in politics." Commisioner of the Queen Harry Borghouts (formerly Green Left) is quoted as saying: "Ultra-right rats are creeping from their sewers and trying to create a feeding ground of hatred" and pleading for a "tough and effective" government response. Officials "in most cases" don't register the threats with the police because "they don't want to throw oil to the fire", the party chairs of the regional Christian-Democrat CDA and right-wing liberal VVD note.

Above the story is a photo referring to another story: "Human chain around islamic school", noting how students of the islamic primary school that was set on fire in Eindhoven formed a human chain around it with parents and neighbours, as a symbol of their solidarity and disapproval.

The national daily the Telegraaf, however, which doesn't carry the story of the burnt Helden mosque at all, has a different frontpage story. "MUSLIMS SHOULDN'T WHINE", it calls out, citing Minister of Integration Verdonk (VVD), whose argument in a TV programme last night "comes down to" saying that "muslims in the Netherlands need to learn how to put up with stuff and stop taking on a victim role whenever they are criticized." The muslim community should stop saying "Terrible, but we can't do anything about it" [every time something happens], Verdonk is quoted as saying. She also said that previous governments have been much too naïve and soft and as a result now "people are living in the Netherlands without investing in this country."

(The VVD made waves a year or so ago when it wanted to punish immigrants who sent money back home, "investing" in their country of origin "instead of here" - a sign of failing integration, in its view. Others noted the irony of the VVD proposing this, since the VVD generally represents the interests of small and big business and investors, many of whom, of course, habitually invest their capital abroad.)

Christian-Democratic and liberal government parties clash: freedom of expression vs. respect for religion

The Verdonk quotes are notable because they signal a serious division, for the first time, within the government itself. The last two or three years the Christian-Democrat CDA and the right-wing liberal VVD have agreed on almost everything, from far-reaching market reforms to a strict line on asylum-seekers. But the aftermath of the murder of van Gogh has apparently uncovered a nerve.

I already observed in this post how, in the shadow of the wider outrage over the murder and the panic over the arrival of Jihad, a debate was started about "common decency" and how much you can actually say, how far one should be allowed to go, in general - with an incipient alliance of christians and socialdemocrats cautiously suggesting that the last few years may have been all too rampant.

Well, this weekend CDA Minister of Justice Hein Donner has unleashed a conflict around exactly this point when he announced, on Saturday's CDA Congress, that his ministry will research whether it can more quickly launch judicial proceedings against blasphemy and the insulting of religious groups. This way, it can be judicially determined what can and can not be said about religion. "You can not insult people into the depth of their [religious] convictions," Donner anticipated, "insulting someone to the bone is something else than discussing things." He proposed to revive a 1934 law originally drafted to protect the Jewish community, which makes it punishable to practice "humiliating blasphemy" that is hurtful to someone's religious feelings. "Blasphemy and the insulting of groups has gone too far in the Netherlands," he submitted.

Donner's point was underscored by PM Balkenende (also Christian-Democrat), who yesterday visited a mosque in Eindhoven and on Saturday at the party congress appealed to all Dutchmen - and especially fellow-politicians, opinion leaders and critics "who in the media have the loudest voice" - to deal with their freedom of expression in a responsible way and think twice before insulting others: "We have to realise that words can injure too".

It was this point that the VVD, in the person of Ms. Verdonk, reacted to so fiercely. It would only lower the resilience [the capacity to put up with things] of Muslims, she said, and "that can not be the goal": "If [Donner] wants to do something about insults on the basis of religion, then he should also do something about other basic rights. Think about the subordination of women and gays in the muslim world".

New political faultlines?

Verdonk was joined in protest by prominent stand-up comedian Hans Teeuwen, who said Donner's remarks "could almost be seen as a prostration before Mohammed B." Together with other comedians [who in Holland have a degree of societal prestige] and friends of Theo van Gogh, he has now drafted a petition that raises a list of questions against the idea, such as "Who actually went too far here?" and "Why make a difference between religion and other convictions?". In the left-leaning Volkskrant, jurist and columnist Afshin Ellian also calls the idea questionable, "both from a political and judicial perspective."

The political faultline that is hesitantly emerging here is very interesting, by the way. The Democrats, the small (and militantly secular) left-liberal party that's a junior partner in the government, joined its right-wing brethren of the VVD in summarily dismissing Donner's idea. But Wouter Bos of the opposition Labour Party's declared his agreement. Instead of the normal left-right polarisation, we thus see a only partially overlapping opposition between individualist liberals (who are sometimes blamed for the loudmouth gimme gimme culture of the last decade) on the one hand and the communitarian "old" parties of the center (who are sometimes blamed for covering up all problems in a swamp of consensus, letting it fester on) on the other.

(Dunno what the Green Left's position is … its nonconformist tradition means it's usually had little up with notions of respect for religion or authority or self-restraint, but as the most prolific proponent of intercultural respect the tables might be turned now ..).

Communities try to recover - with mixed results

On the bright side … in the Hague neighbourhood that was cordoned off with the arrests last week, de Volkskrant reports, the neighbourhood's Turkish Muslim congregation invited their Dutch neighbours to celebrate Suikerfeest with them. Unfortunately only 1 Dutchman came, though 32 at least took the trouble of calling off … the same happened in the neighbouring Schilderswijk, where only 3 Dutch neighbours came. More successful however was the initiative of the mosque here in the Utrecht neighbourhood of Zuilen, which was the victim of an arson attack last week and in response decided to hold an "open day", inviting everyone from tehe neighbourhood. Over 300 people came, writes the Utrecht Nieuwsblad, to drink tea, be shown around, discuss and sign a petition that said "Don't let threats lead to division or hatred. Show that Zuilen is a community."

In another Utrecht neighbourhood, Hoograven, the islamic community distributed five thousand leaflets to condemn the murder of Theo van Gogh on the occasion of the end of the Ramadan, citing the Koran to argue its condemnation. The leaflet was drafted by the imam with local Muslim youths, and will be the basis for a neighbourhood meeting organised together with the neighbourhood's churches and the residents' association.

Looming self-censorship?

Ally Derks, director of the International Documentary Filmfestival Amsterdam (the largest in the world, will take place this month) meanwhile announced that the festival will pay attention to the topic of "looming self-censorship". It's a wider theme in our small society where directors are dependent on subsidies from the various public broadcasters and therefore tend to only make movies they think one or the other of them will like - it means we "don't have" someone like Michael Moore: "Not anymore. The only one who could have done it, is dead. I think it's become impossible to make a critical film about Islam. You run the risk as filmmaker of getting your throat cut off. It's become a dangerous subject."
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 01:55 pm
nihm, I'm sure, you the the situation in Germany better than Bembelpetzer seems to have got to know.

In our rather small town we have quite some active Muslim women: two in our local town parliament, very lively/active cultural groups etc etc.

(An aside: when I was teaching sexual pedagogics/AIDS prevention in youth clubs, none of the Turkish and Iranian Muslims girls seemed to have any difficulties with joining the 'classes' but only two Morocean sisters: they were Christians [Catholics, if I remember correctly].)
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 02:49 pm
Nimh, thanks for your continued insight into your home happenings.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 03:16 pm
Nimh - I hope you guys are just going through a sort of boil explosion - and that things settle into a more uniformly rational response...
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 04:58 pm
I added a few headers, hope that makes those overlong posts easier to read ...

McG, no problem ... digesting this news is actually kind of a good way for myself to well, digest the news ... make sense of it all ... kinda.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 05:14 pm
AP: Netherlands Mulling Anti-Terror Laws

By ANTHONY DEUTSCH
Associated Press Writer


THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) -- Spurred by the first terrorist killing on its soil, the Dutch justice minister said Monday authorities need broader arrest powers to combat a growing threat from Islamic radicals in the Netherlands.

In an Associated Press interview, Justice Minister Piet Hein Donner also suggested the spread of Islamic radicalism is more widespread than the government previously acknowledged.

He said the new laws would empower anti-terrorism investigators to detain suspects without evidence that they may have committed a crime.

"In those cases where we can't even clearly prove the existence of recruitment or radicalization, but only have a suspicion, we will still use possible administrative powers and other powers to disrupt it as much as possible," said Donner, the country's leading terrorism official.

link
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 08:49 pm
nimh wrote:
JW, sorry about being overly defensive and prickly there. You were just asking a question. I've started seeing a rhetorical question in everything that's being asked (time to quit the politics threads).

Closing off the border and deporting thousands of people is definitely not on the agenda. Politicians did vote, I believe, to make it possible to deport radical imams (but we're talking at most dozens here, not thousands), and to force mosques to only employ imams educated here in the Netherlands from some point in time onwards (2006 or something?).


nimh - no worries - I rarely see you as defensive or prickly and if ever you have a reason, I'd think it's now with what you're going through there and the ensuing tensions.

Wow. I am just stunned at your second paragraph! Just goes to prove how convoluted the news stories can become! There's a woman named Heather Nauer (sp?) - a reporter for Fox News, who's been in Amsterdam for several days now - she updates at least once a day, and I caught her report of this very morning (looked coolish and cloudy there). The words "kicking out tens of thousands" and "closing the borders" was mentioned more than once. Wow.

I heard a guy on the radio (as I drove home from work tonight) saying how irritated he was that the news agencies in general aren't saying nearly enough about the Van Gogh murder over here. His contention was that it's due to bias (gave a long rant I won't bore you with) - but, who knows...maybe he's right.

I have to go back and read all the rest of the comments in the thread now (I know - I do things backwards LOL) - I thought I saw some new posters - always welcome Smile

Stay safe.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 09:15 pm
bembelpetzer wrote:
Regarding dalahow1´s remarks on Islam:

The statements from the Quran regarding the role of the woman do actually apply. I have read some of the Quran for personal matters in the past and can affirm that its text does not provide for the oppression of women. However, reality in most Islamic countries and in immigrant families in Europe sets forth a far different picture:

The oppression of the woman is the norm, and equality often nothing but a sweet dream. The German newsmagazine "Der Spiegel" is even making up with this situation this week. Have a look at this, even if you don´t speak German:

http://service.spiegel.de/digas/servlet/epaper?Q=SP&JG=2004&AG=47&SE=1



The title translates into "Allah´s daughters without rights". The real situation of the Islamic female, even here in Europe, is far away from the word of the Quran. No contacts with people outside the house, outside the own cultural (and often language) background. Elsewhere outside Europe, you see stonings, circumcisions at birth, and the obligation to wear the burka. How can there be such a difference between the written word of the Quran and reality? Could it be that the Fatwas set forth bysome "religious leaders" do not reflect the word of the Quran, but only the will of the people (men) issuing them? To me, that is what Hirsi Ali stands for. And she is right.


bembelpetzer - thanks for that input. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're saying is that it's more "tradition" if some Muslim women are still being somewhat oppressed in this day and age, rather than the specific teachings of the Quran.

Here in the US, we experience more what Nimh does - the immigrant families of the Muslim faith assimilate more into our society, although still practicing their religious beliefs, but I don't see any of the strident hardships on women that were exposed after the fall of the Taliban in Afghanistan.

I'm now more than a bit confused, but I'll keep reading.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 09:24 pm
nimh - one thing I forgot to mention - in the news story on Van Gogh this morning - they tried to quickly give "opposing" points of view. I think it was your Integration Minister, Verdonk, that first gave a "soundbite". Wasn't terribly enlightening - maybe 15 or 20 seconds and nothing memorable.

Then they showed an unnamed businessman (only identifying him as a Muslim) who was clearly concerned (you could see the worry in his face) about the violence - the fires, etc. At the end, he said something like "well, this was a tragic event, but just remember there may be worse things than murder."

Wasn't said menacingly (don't think that was his intent), but I admit I still can't figure out what he meant.
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Thok
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2004 07:20 am
Top story in Netherlands: Pim Fortuyn Is Voted Greatest Dutchman in Broadcaster's Survey
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2004 08:28 am
Oh God did he really win?!

Damn, just when I was posting here yesterday I was thinking, oh I should still vote, otherwise who knows Pim might actually win - but I forgot - and now here we are.

<shakes head incredulously>
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2004 08:35 am
nimh wrote:
Oh God did he really win?!
Quote:


In case you haven't seen the frontpage yet

http://www.newseum.org/media/dfp/lg/NET_AD.jpg
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Thok
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2004 08:36 am
You can shakes your head incredulously but it's true.

Surely this shakes the Netherlands even if it is "only" a broadcaster survey.

As PM Balkenende said, that this is the wrong way.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2004 08:43 am
JustWonders wrote:
Then they showed an unnamed businessman (only identifying him as a Muslim) who was clearly concerned (you could see the worry in his face) about the violence - the fires, etc. At the end, he said something like "well, this was a tragic event, but just remember there may be worse things than murder."

Wasn't said menacingly (don't think that was his intent), but I admit I still can't figure out what he meant.


Dunno either ...

Only thing I can think of, but I'm just speculating here ... like, a Danish newspaper for example compared the string of arson attacks here with the Kristallnacht (you know, the night when the Nazis in Germany first went on a rampage destroying and setting fire to all the Jewish shops, in the thirties). Totally out of proportion, that comparison. But in any case, if thats the framework you choose, then I can imagine going, well, one murder is bad, but a Kristallnacht in retaliation is worse ... something like that.

I think it's incomparable, myself. Earlier on I think I said that the murder signals a problem thats more "deep" and acute (the arrival of Jihad here), but thats also a relatively concentrated problem; whereas the subsequent string of tit-for-tat attacks signalled a wider problem - more shallow (noone killed yet), but much more wide-spread.

JustWonders wrote:
Wow. I am just stunned at your second paragraph! Just goes to prove how convoluted the news stories can become! There's a woman named Heather Nauer (sp?) - a reporter for Fox News, who's been in Amsterdam for several days now - she updates at least once a day, and I caught her report of this very morning (looked coolish and cloudy there). The words "kicking out tens of thousands" and "closing the borders" was mentioned more than once. Wow.

Hhhmmmmmm ....

You know how hard it is for me now not to say something snide about my prejudices concerning Fox News being completely confirmed, don't you? Razz

I guess it's good that they pay such attention to the case in the first place ... an interest in foreign politics is always good.

But yeah, not terribly surprised at how they are playing it - how they're telling the story and what incorrect information they're including, specifically. Fox News would play the rampant panic card about tens of thousands of dangerous Muslims that even the Europeans now have to deport, etc. It fits with its agenda.

Oops, did it after all ... Razz
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2004 08:50 am
nimh wrote:
Oh God did he really win?!

Damn, just when I was posting here yesterday I was thinking, oh I should still vote, otherwise who knows Pim might actually win - but I forgot - and now here we are.

<shakes head incredulously>


Just substitute "Bush" for "Pim", and that's the exact reaction of a lot of us on November 3rd... sigh...

For a lot of the same reasons, I'd imagine, a sort of who are you and what have you done with my country? kind of disorientation.
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