The NEXT coming Oz election thread!

What was it about Jon Faine's broadcast that so disturbed you, dadpad?

The man was a convicted drug smuggler. Tried, convicted appealed to the nth degree. It seemed ghoulish to have "up to the minute details" of how the sentence was being carried out. Why would people be interested in that type of reporting? a misjudgment on the medias behalf that Australians are morbidly facinated with executions?

A line or two would have sufficed........Nguyen a convicted drug smuggler was hanged in singapore this morning etc..........if it was necessary to report anything.
We often joke here about current affairs reporters getting a bonus if they can get the person they are interviewing to cry on TV. Its just........ too much.
Remember i didnt listen to the broadcast beyond the opening 30 seconds.
Msolga im not a heartless bastard i just believe in the right of a country, any country, to enforce their own laws without interference or political pressure. At least, in a situation such as this.

I have to admit that the media focussed overly on the nguyen personal tragedy angle, but that's to not deny that a real part of what the death penalty is about - I would have like more focus on what the death penalty means for a society and for individuals, Sister Helen Prejean on TripleJ was brilliant.

Odd that the US executed it's 1000th prisoner since reintroducing capital punishment in 1976 on the same day.

I don't think turning the state into a murderer is right - regardless of geography.

Laws and their penalties are carved in water, they are subjectively created and applied, are often politically motivated; to treat them as some sort of infallible oracle is simplistic and dangerous to your own liberty.

If you are serious about the war on drugs you should be urging your parliamentary representatives to censure a government that has business partnerships with Burmese drug lords.

Like it or not, we live in a flat world.

As it turned out, dadpad, the broadcast was fairly "measured". Thank goodness, I couldn't have taken a blow by blow rundown, either. Too harrowing by far! I think the reason Jon Faine covered the execution from Singapore was because the interest here (in Melbourne) was huge. (But then, Nguyen was from Melbourne, so the high level of interest was understandable.) Saturation coverage. I found it a bit overwhelming at times. I agree with hinge that perhaps there was too much emphasis on Nguyen & his family, though here Lex Lazry (sp?) managed to get a fairly good run on the legal & moral implications, too. I can see the reason for the personal tragedy angle, though .... we certainly got the sense of who he was. That a real human being was being put to death. He was no mere statistic! There were some excellent discussions about the rights & wrongs of the death penalty as a result. However, at times I, too, felt the media coverage was a bit over the top: it made him appear rather too saintly & his mother a madonna figure, almost. And at times I felt that the media imposed on their private grief, making it a public event.

Hinge, what did Sister Helen Prejean have to say, if it's not too much trouble? I'm very interested.

Hi Olgs

The bit that stuck in my mind was that juries in the US with the option of applying the death penalty aren't.

I can't remember which state she gaves as an example but since bringing back the death penalty this state had only used it once - her line being that people vote with their feet (to torture a mixed metaphor).

[side thought:]What is the chance that a guilty person would be freed because a jury did not want to be 'responsible' for someone's death?[end]

As our readers may know, Prejean works with inmates on death row (the movie Dead Man Walking is based on her experiences) and she is acutely aware of what the death penalty means to individuals and to the families they come from - in effect executing someone creates a whole new bunch of victims. To the US's credit, at least the executions are not 'closed' like Singapore and people are exposed to the brutal reality of state-sanctioned murder.

Of course our readers may also know that the lower socio-economic groups are over represented on death row. And that in the US over a hundred death row residents have been released on examination of evidence with DNA technologies that didn't exist at the time of conviction.

For the record (taken from the Amnesty International site http://www.amnesty.org/)



I would argue that there are worse crimes than trafficking that do not attract the mandatory death penalty. I would also argue that if I were to go to a Singaporean shopping mall with an AK47 and kill 50 people I would get the same punishment as Van Nguyen; is that just?

damn I waffle sometimes. Sorry.

Waffle away anytime, hinge! Interesting.

And no, that doesn't seem just to me, either.

Thanks for your response. This issue is not going to disappear any time soon.

.. meanwhile, back in Canberra ...

Bob Brown was spot on when he described Barnaby as a "Christmas turkey". I wonder how he'd describe Fielding's big moment? I'm wondering just how his vote will benefit families. God help us all from these religious ego trippers in the senate! I can't believe what's been going on there in the last month. So much damage to undo!

"Meanwhile, back to Canberra" -if that was a link- didn't work for me. So I need to find out what Fielding and Barnaby and Brown have been up to... Any summary or a link would be appreciated.

With regards to the death penalty in parts of the US: I can't prove it but I think we are ever so gradually moving away from it. Too many cases where maybe, just maybe, the person wasn't guilty. Disproportionately skewed against minorities. There isn't much discussion of what to johnboy is fundamental: is the death penalty the revenge of a society meted out to an individual for crossing the line of civilized behavior or is it meant to be a deter other from acting likewise. -rjb-

Dammit, RJB, that was meant to be a gentle, oh so subtle shift from capital punishment back to the dirty doings of the federal parliament! And So subtle that hardly anyone would notice & not feel that I'm gagging the subject. (It's very a touchy & divisive topic, as you may have noticed.) And you're telling me it didn't work? :wink:

OK, then .... I'll do an el quicko rundown for you of the dirty doings. I hope this makes sense.:

You remember, of course, that John Howard & the Libs now have control of both houses of parliament? And that JH has used (abused) this to introduce some very unpopular legislation? Like the sale of Telstra, IR "reform", Anti terrorism, legislation & at the end of last week, voluntary student union laws.
OK, so the vote in the senate on contentious issues can be very tight. Every single vote counts. The balance of power could shift quite easily should someone in the governing party decide to cross the floor & do a "conscience vote". Unusual situation, rarely happens, but it has been done. Barnaby Joyce (National Party senator) has exploited this situation to his own benefit by grand-standing about issues like Telstra & IR "reform" & gaining a misguided "maverick" status, in the media, then caving in at the last minute & voting with the government. Very very tedious. Hence Bob Brown, leader of the Greens, referred to Barnaby as a "Christmas Turkey". Very apt!
Steve Fielding (Family First. Fringe "Christian values" party: He fluked a place in the senate for reasons I won't elaborate on here) Anyway, to cut a long story short, he help Howard pass his students voluntary contribution law last week after a meeting with JH that same day. Barnaby Joyce apparently was so passionate about this issue he was prepared to face the wrath of Howard & his own party (coalition partners with the Libs) by crossing the floor & voting with Labor to defeat it. (Are you still with me?) Anyway he was out manoeuvered by Fielding who voted with the Libs! Rumour has it that he & Howard did a deal on the soon to be debated availability of the "morning after" contraceptive pill. (Another hot potato!)

So, RJH, I'm completely exasperated that these two, Joyce & Fielding, are having such a disproportionate amount of influence over such incredibly important matters. Debate has been really heated in the senate over the past week & a bit as the Liberals have rushed through a huge amount of legislation, gagged debate & been generally obnoxious & totally unresponsive to public & media opinion on these issues. I wish I could have explained that less clumsily, but I'm a bit tired & that's the best I can do right now. Where is GF, or hinge, when we need them?

Hinge is here and disturbed by the threats to Fielding and the beating up of middle eastern-looking people in Cronulla.

Have we gone nuts? What sort of country has John Howard created?

Appalling, wasn't it, hinge? I can't quite believe that that happened in Australia. :

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/12/11/1134235951620.html

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/neonazis-in-race-riots-police/2005/12/12/1134235970427.html

What sort of country? A very divided one. Race & class. I could weep.

Crikey! on Cronulla:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anti-terror for Cronulla ringleaders?
Stephen Feneley writes:

It seems those anti-terror laws were passed just in the nick of time. All those cosmopolitan elites who said we didn't need laws against the incitement of racial violence should be hanging their heads in shame over their skinny decaf lattes today in the wake of the outbreak of Skip-on-Leb violence on Sydney's beaches. How shameful that anyone could have questioned the Attorney General's determination to rush these laws through Parliament.

The awful violence at Cronulla and Maroubra was proof of the threat posed to our democracy by evil forces (in this case pissed white Cronulla home-boys) determined to stir up hatred against people for no other reason than their suspected ethnicity or religion. No doubt federal authorities - armed with the new anti-terror laws and with the full backing of Mr Ruddock - will move swiftly to track down and prosecute the malevolent ringleaders responsible for sending those text messages that drew the rioting yobs to the beach yesterday afternoons.

I am joking of course. It's unlikely Ruddock would want the laws used in this case, although it might have been different had those text messages originated from a mobile belonging to someone of middle-eastern appearance. Even though the anti-incitement provisions of the legislation are ideally suited for this event, it's a safe bet no one in the Government ever thought a situation would arise where the wrong-doers would fit the profile of Howard battlers.

Before Paul Sheahan of the Sydney Morning Herald accuses me of turning a blind eye to the behaviour of people he refers to as Lebanese gangstas, I am not excusing violence perpetrated by anyone. The people who beat up on the lifeguards at Cronulla on the previous weekend should be caught and prosecuted.

However there seems little doubt that the incitement of yesterday's violence was the the work of people who regard themselves as true blue Aussies. This kind of white-bread fundamentalism wasn't in the Ruddock/Howard script when they whipped up hysteria about the threat lurking within our midst in order to justify their stupid and contemptible laws.
~

(A message for Mr goodfielder:
Where are you hiding, gf & why are you avoiding us, hmmmmmm?
Please return here post haste! Or there will be consequences, OK? ...... :wink: )

OK, then! Let's put JH's new laws to good use! First, hit those thugs at Cronulla with the anti-terrorist laws (see above), then hit the Oz Wheat Board with sedition! I can't understand how the outrageous Wheat Board deal with Saddam has not caused more outrage. :

Great little place, Oz in 2005! Thanks for nothing, JH! :

More Cronulla aftermath:

Last Update: Monday, December 12, 2005. 6:20pm (AEDT)

Police on alert after Sydney race riot

Road closures will be put in place tonight and the police air wing and mounted officers have already been deployed to certain Sydney suburbs after yesterday's riots, the New South Wales Police Commissioner Ken Moroney says.

Police say a total of 16 people have been arrested on 41 charges arising from the violence in the Sydney beach-side suburb of Cronulla.

Commissioner Moroney says curfews and a total ban on alcohol will be considered if necessary.

The New South Wales Government has said white supremacists were involved in the violence.

"There appears to be an element of white supremacists and they really have no place in mainstream Australian society," Police Minister Carl Scully said at a news conference.

"Those sort of characters are best placed in Berlin 1930s, not in Cronulla 2005." ... <cont>

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200512/s1529329.htm

Oh, my. Oh, dear. Johnboy is genuinely stunned to read about this.
I feel sorry for the police officers. Did they under-react or over-react?
Everyone looks at them. But the fault lies elsewhere, doesn't it?
I look forward to hearing more from yall.
Very troubling.

Everyone I know is very stunned & distressed by what happened RJB. This is not the sort of thing that we're used to, expect or tolerate. I'm quite depressed at what's happening here, on all sorts of levels.

Don't know as the poor coppers had anything to answer for, RJB.


Very difficult situation.

You know, I suspect a lot of this is booze, testerone and bullshit. Like France.