What is the worst thing about your religion?

I think Pride and Judgment is the root of all evil withing nearly any religion.

Our way is the only way. Others who deviate are going to hell. We know what God is completely and there is no debate. Blah Blah Blah...

TTF

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George wrote:

Hmmm... That makes a strong case for Judaism. Any chance you might waive the circumcision thing?

It's not so bad once you get used to it.... Very Happy

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Moishe3rd wrote:

George wrote:
Hmmm... That makes a strong case for Judaism. Any chance you might waive the circumcision thing?

It's not so bad once you get used to it....

I'm just gonna take your word for it.

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What is the worst thing about your religion?

The History.

I'm catholic. lapsed

Whle the religion has beauty and done some remarkable things historically, in terms of supporting the arts, education, medicine and care of the poor, catholicism has a pretty dark past as well. Slapppy has only touched on some of the recent ugly examples.

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I was raised sort of jewish, and it always bothered me when they:

A. chanting repeatedly. This is true of any religion - almost all feature mantras of some kind. They would chant and chant the same words repeatedly until it became this sort of brainwashing ritual. This has disturbed me in Jewish and buddhist temples, mosques, and churches. When people chant that much, they forget what it is they are saying or thinking about and turn into this religious mob-like entity.

B. Before I became an agnostic, everytime they brought up "The chosen people" it made me cringe. I'm a big fan of the everyone is born equal under god mentality, and from there people have a series of individual things to deal with and character-build. But if god has a chosen people from the off-set, then it implies that everyone else is un-chosen. Which seemed inherently cruel.

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Portal Star wrote:

I was raised sort of jewish, and it always bothered me when they brought up "The chosen people" it made me cringe. I'm a big fan of the everyone is born equal under god mentality, and from there people have a series of individual things to deal with and character-build. But if god has a chosen people from the off-set, then it implies that everyone else is un-chosen. Which seemed inherently cruel.

Really? Perhaps you misunderstood:

GOD NAMES NEXT "CHOSEN PEOPLE"; IT'S JEWS AGAIN: "Oh ****," Say Jews

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I was raised a Catholic, sort of.

Things that disconfort me about Catholicism:

The Inquisition. The cruelty of it all.
The fight against Galileo.
Dogma. To be forbidden to even think about some mysteries. To be forced to obey the Pope.
The idea of limbo for those "who never knew the true religion".
Equalizing capital sins: a murder is as punishable with hell as a lie or not going to church on Sundays. (At least good ol' Dante had circles in hell).
Pope Pious XII blessing the Nazi-fascist cannons.
Seeing churches full of gold, and hungry, shoeless members of the parish. Money hungry priests make me sick.
The Catholic church upholding Franco and his fascist criminals against a people-elected government in Spain.
The Catholic church fighting the Mexican government in the 20s... on the name of religious freedom, they wanted to keep their land, and stop distribution to the peasantry... their followers hung the rural teachers or cut their ears off. Some of the most incredible savagery was led by priests.
Pope Woytila beatifying as martyrs some of the priests who died in that war (not the savage ones, though).
The Pope's stand on birth control (this, I loathe) on abortion and gay rights (this, I dislike and disagree).
The Banco Ambrosiano scandal.

My take is that in Protestant countries, Protestantism helped them to become democracies. In Catholic countries, democracies have flourished against the will of the church.

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The worst thing about my religion.

Is the fact that it holds you accountable for every single move you make.
In my religion it is a BIG issue.. you get what you give out.... SO you have to stay conscious of everything.
I like it. It 'keeps me in line'
But at times it is really tiring.

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ForeverYoung wrote:

Portal Star wrote:
I was raised sort of jewish, and it always bothered me when they brought up "The chosen people" it made me cringe. I'm a big fan of the everyone is born equal under god mentality, and from there people have a series of individual things to deal with and character-build. But if god has a chosen people from the off-set, then it implies that everyone else is un-chosen. Which seemed inherently cruel.

Really? Perhaps you misunderstood:

GOD NAMES NEXT "CHOSEN PEOPLE"; IT'S JEWS AGAIN: "Oh ****," Say Jews

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Portal Star wrote:

I was raised sort of jewish, and it always bothered me when they:

A. chanting repeatedly. This is true of any religion - almost all feature mantras of some kind. They would chant and chant the same words repeatedly until it became this sort of brainwashing ritual. This has disturbed me in Jewish and buddhist temples, mosques, and churches. When people chant that much, they forget what it is they are saying or thinking about and turn into this religious mob-like entity.

B. Before I became an agnostic, everytime they brought up "The chosen people" it made me cringe. I'm a big fan of the everyone is born equal under god mentality, and from there people have a series of individual things to deal with and character-build. But if god has a chosen people from the off-set, then it implies that everyone else is un-chosen. Which seemed inherently cruel.

Portal Star,
I would respectfully suggest that the chanting thing can be used for good or ill. I have found it to be the same as you noted; and to be useful for meditation; and to be totally irrelevant if I do indeed concentrate on what it is that I am saying.
It all depends on the effort I make.

And, other than ForeverYoung's very apt comment, the Torah says that the Jews are "chosen" to take on special responsibilities (and apparently very few of the commensurate priviledges that might go with them). Being "chosen" as in being "better" is not a particulary religious Jewish concept.
It is a very human concept however. It could even ease the pain of being chosen....

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I was raised up in a pentacostal church.

The "Old Pentacostal", didn't believe in shaving thier legs/arms, make-up, cutting thier hair. They wore long skirts, long sleeves and didn't show much skin. You did not mark your body in any way, shape or form.

Even though I was raised up in a pentacostal church and believe some of thier teachings. I am in thier eyes, quite "Worldly", and on my way straight to hell by thier standards.

I'm bleached, shaven, tattooed, pierced, and wear wild outfits that do not fit into thier standards of dressing.

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Moishe3rd wrote:

Portal Star wrote:
I was raised sort of jewish, and it always bothered me when they:

A. chanting repeatedly. This is true of any religion - almost all feature mantras of some kind. They would chant and chant the same words repeatedly until it became this sort of brainwashing ritual. This has disturbed me in Jewish and buddhist temples, mosques, and churches. When people chant that much, they forget what it is they are saying or thinking about and turn into this religious mob-like entity.

B. Before I became an agnostic, everytime they brought up "The chosen people" it made me cringe. I'm a big fan of the everyone is born equal under god mentality, and from there people have a series of individual things to deal with and character-build. But if god has a chosen people from the off-set, then it implies that everyone else is un-chosen. Which seemed inherently cruel.

Portal Star,
I would respectfully suggest that the chanting thing can be used for good or ill. I have found it to be the same as you noted; and to be useful for meditation; and to be totally irrelevant if I do indeed concentrate on what it is that I am saying.
It all depends on the effort I make.

And, other than ForeverYoung's very apt comment, the Torah says that the Jews are "chosen" to take on special responsibilities (and apparently very few of the commensurate priviledges that might go with them). Being "chosen" as in being "better" is not a particulary religious Jewish concept.
It is a very human concept however. It could even ease the pain of being chosen....

Moishe, I understand the benefits for some people. And my family nearly kills me every time I tell them I'm agnostic. Yes, I am very aware of Jewish culture and history. They are, generally, not opressive people and are, generally, opressed people.

But, that doesn't mean that there still isn't bias inherent in "the chosen people." Think about it. There's no way that that could be interpreted that doesn't disqualify equality under god. If god has chosen people, then he has un-chosen people, plain and simple. People aren't born into a caste, they make choices in life which determine who they are (and, if there was a god, how god should feel about them.) Apparently god felt they were chosen when he slaughtered the innocent first borns of the Egyptians. They were born un-chosen.

Sure, mob mentalities can be healing. You don't have to think, you feel part of a community, you feel relaxed and accepted. But I am extremely individualist and stubborn. I'm one of those people who likes people (thinking, living, individuals) and hates crowds (people-plural, dominated by animal instinct usually led by mob rule.) The most terrible things that happen in humanity tend to happen with an unthinking ritual, people following a crowd without asking, as an individual, why they are doing it.

What is especially disturbing is that, in terms of singing in Hebrew or in Latin, half the time people don't know what the heck they are singing. I learned a fair amount of hebrew, and there are plenty of things that I downright disagree with, things that people sing with as much candor as the shemah. These days, most jews don't study any hebrew after their bar/bat mitzvah, and they may as well be singing "wipe my tuchus and call me ishmael" because they don't get it. And heck, I don't think anyone but monks bothered to learn Latin when that was in vogue in catholicism. I actually miss the latin mass despite this, it sounded pretty.

When it gets down to it, modern Judaism is a culture, not a religion. The old testament is extinct in comparison with our way of living (in my opinion, so is the new testament) and must be interpreted to the extent that we are no longer shocked at god killing innocents, or stoning women to death for being unfaithful, or testing people's faith like an insolent child - by threatening the innocent.

On the positive side, at least Judaism isn't blatantly violent, like Islam. I don't get how people can read the Koran, and then say it is peaceful. They are probably, as in most religions, giving it a modern interprative spin.

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Moishe3rd wrote:

ForeverYoung wrote:
Portal Star wrote:
I was raised sort of jewish, and it always bothered me when they brought up "The chosen people" it made me cringe. I'm a big fan of the everyone is born equal under god mentality, and from there people have a series of individual things to deal with and character-build. But if god has a chosen people from the off-set, then it implies that everyone else is un-chosen. Which seemed inherently cruel.

Really? Perhaps you misunderstood:

GOD NAMES NEXT "CHOSEN PEOPLE"; IT'S JEWS AGAIN: "Oh ****," Say Jews

Oh, I am so sorry I didn't see this before, Moishe3rd! Now I feel so happy I could dance the Hora! Cool

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Quote:

When it gets down to it, modern Judaism is a culture, not a religion. The old testament is extinct in comparison with our way of living (in my opinion, so is the new testament) and must be interpreted to the extent that we are no longer shocked at god killing innocents, or stoning women to death for being unfaithful, or testing people's faith like an insolent child - by threatening the innocent.

I understand the rest of your post and I definitely believe that to each his own...
Be whom you want to be.
However...
For those of us who actually believe in G-d and Torah and mitzvos, Judaism is a relgion. As with all religions, it has developed its own culture, but for religious Jews, the (secular) "culture of Judaism" is not something we find particulary inspiring or useful. It just is.
I agree that the style of Judaism that you were brought up with must have been less than useful if your view of G-d and the Torah is as you say it is. I can't argue with that.
But, I would again respectfully submit that your interpretation of G-d and the Torah is not an accepted "religious" interpretation.
It may well be the cultural interpretation that you complain of, but it is not the religious one.
The religious view of Judaism is one of joy and fellowship and study and redemption and mercy and compassion and understanding and hope.
Very Happy

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
(Hamlet I.v. 174-175)

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Moishe3rd wrote:

Quote:
When it gets down to it, modern Judaism is a culture, not a religion. The old testament is extinct in comparison with our way of living (in my opinion, so is the new testament) and must be interpreted to the extent that we are no longer shocked at god killing innocents, or stoning women to death for being unfaithful, or testing people's faith like an insolent child - by threatening the innocent.

I understand the rest of your post and I definitely believe that to each his own...
Be whom you want to be.
However...
For those of us who actually believe in G-d and Torah and mitzvos, Judaism is a relgion. As with all religions, it has developed its own culture, but for religious Jews, the (secular) "culture of Judaism" is not something we find particulary inspiring or useful. It just is.
I agree that the style of Judaism that you were brought up with must have been less than useful if your view of G-d and the Torah is as you say it is. I can't argue with that.
But, I would again respectfully submit that your interpretation of G-d and the Torah is not an accepted "religious" interpretation.
It may well be the cultural interpretation that you complain of, but it is not the religious one.
The religious view of Judaism is one of joy and fellowship and study and redemption and mercy and compassion and understanding and hope.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
(Hamlet I.v. 174-175)

The difference, Moishe, is that these things you talk about are all -interpretations- of the Torah, but are not actually found in the Torah. (Shakespeare, for example - not in the Torah.) I have never met a violent jew, and most do good mitzvahs and value higher education. I completely agree with and support all of this.

The difference comes from what the Torah actually -says-. Every Rushushanna you start the Torah over again, reading it yearly (I'm assuiming you are doing this although I have no idea what sect you are.) Maybe you should pay more attention to what the Torah is, literally, saying - the literal words, the literal stories - than how your synagogye tells you to interpret it. The only way to know what something is saying is to actually read it - and for sure modern interpreters of the Torah have little clue about how it was meant to be interpreted when it was written. You are reading the torah for what you think it means, instead of what it literally says, which is why - to me - judaism is more of a culture. They are one of the religions farthest from the source of their doctrine in terms of literal interpretation. And, no, I hate that "judaism is a race" crap. Jews live all over the world and that wasn't what I was talking about.

If you were following a literal interpretation of the Torah, you would be having sex through a sheet, killed if you didn't bleed, and you would be confined to a house with other women on your period - a sinful time. You wouldn't even be allowed to be a jew, because judaism is for men. As for the men, they must have beards and payess, and go to shul every week, etc. etc. etc. Not to mention animal sacrafice.
Plus, Jews, who pride themself on education - can probably more clearly see that Adam and Eve and Noah were both myths. So, which parts do you take literally? And how do you know what god is if there is no evidence of god outside of this doctrine which you don't wholly believe in anyway?

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Polar Star, ever heard of:

The Oral Torah

PaRDeS -- the four levels of approaching the text of which the first is Pshat (plain meaning and not literal, which was never an issue)

The 613 mitzvot found in the torah that you can find here:

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Midrash

If you want Jews who only consider the Tanakh as valid, check out the Karaites. Judaism says the Written Torah cannot be understood without the Oral Torah, as explained through the Talmud. It has also never said there is only one meaning to a text. See midrash again.

Some of the things you mention about the Torah aren't even present, like sex through a sheet. Kosher sex is with nothing separating the man and woman, so they are flesh against flesh. I think it was the persians who did the sheet thing.

Niddah is not a sinful time. It's a beautiful time. It allows for a man and a woman to relate to each other beyond just sexual needs and also strengthen the desire between the two.

Where does it say men must have payos? And why do they need to have beards? They cannot shave, but they can cut, including with an electric razor that cuts with two blades.

Animal sacrifice cannot happen because there is no Temple. Now we have other ways come close to God, and I can give you biblical quotes on that if you need them.

Where does it say Judaism is for men? Tell that to an Orthodox woman.

I'm not even bothering with any of your other fallacies.

What do you have against myth? Myth can be very deep. Who said the Torah is actual History?

Also, why do we need to know what God is? If we want a better idea there are two approaches: the intellectual approach and the mystic approach. I don't think either of them are entirely satisfactory, and Judaism doesn't either.

The mitzvot give us opportunities to encounter the Divine in all of the things we do. You seem very disconnected from that.

Dauer

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I like Life, Life likes me, Life and I fairly fully agree!
Life is fine, Life is Good, Especially mine, which is just as it should be!
I like pouring the wine and Why not?
Lie's a pleasure that I deny not!
Very Happy

(Scrooge from the musical "Scrooge")

Quote:

If you were following a literal interpretation of the Torah, you would be having sex through a sheet, killed if you didn't bleed, and you would be confined to a house with other women on your period - a sinful time. You wouldn't even be allowed to be a jew, because judaism is for men. As for the men, they must have beards and payess, and go to shul every week, etc. etc. etc. Not to mention animal sacrafice.
Plus, Jews, who pride themself on education - can probably more clearly see that Adam and Eve and Noah were both myths. So, which parts do you take literally? And how do you know what god is if there is no evidence of god outside of this doctrine which you don't wholly believe in anyway?

Oy vey izmir.
No, no mein bubbela. This is not and never vas Torah.
Oy, oy, oy.
I am one o' them peyses wearin' beard growin' sex havin' period seperatin' three times a day shul prayin' Yid.
And the Toirah? Vhat about de Toirah? Have you read this Toirah?
Vell, bubbela, let me tell YOU.
I have read dis Toirah!!
(And I dinnit unnerstan' a vord of it.)
Oy.

What Dauer writes is essentially correct (but let's be a little kind here Dauer. Unless a person is interested and has studied Torah, why should they have a clue? 99% of most Jews are not educated in Judaism. Not necessarily their fault.)

The Torah was never, ever meant to be read literally as some piece of Divine Gobbledegook. It don't work that way.

I am indeed an Orthodox Jew. We generally refer to Jews who believe in Torah and mitzvos as Torah observant Jews.
The rest of the world knows us as Orthodox; Ultra-Orthodox; Chareidi; Chassidim; whatever.

The Torah, Jewish Law, Jewish Customs (Minhag); everything we do and believe as Jews is not possible without the Oral Torah. The Oral Torah is now written down as the Mishna and Gemora, known as the Talmud, along with two thousand years of commentaries on all and everything by thousands of learned men (and women, oddly enough).
Without studying what Judaism is, the literal word of the Torah is so much tedium...
Who could make sense?

For instance - When G-d began to Create....
"And G-d created man in His own image; in the image of G-d He created him; male and female He created them." (Bereshis 1:27)
There is much to be said on this one passage, but it is obvious that:
Man's physical appearance has nothing to do with what it means to be in the Image of G-d;
Man does not mean man as in male homo sapien;
What is different about Man as in the Human Race as opposed to animals is that what makes us different is that within us is the Image of G-d.

Now, I can quote you the Sages chapter and verse if you like, but I think you get my drift here. There is much, much, much, much more to Torah and Judaism than some rinky dink literalism. Echhh. Might as well be a Muslim.... (no, no, no, just kidding. Happy to be me.) Smile

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I see that you acknowledge that the Torah, in itself, is tedious and confusing and generally not applicable in its direct form to our every day life. That is basically what I was shooting for.

I also find it interesting that you are an orthodox, because very few people are these days. I grew up in an orthodox synogague, then went to a reformed temple and saturday school, then another even more reformed temple where I played in their clesmer band. I was actually very well trained in Judaism, but the reason I say I was -kind- of jewish is because I never really believed in it all the way - it's just how I was raised.

Indeed some of the things I listed (as Dauer pointed out) were from the Talmud and not the Torah, but I forget which is which and which quotes are where because it has been about seven years since I have read any of either. On a side note I find this celebrity pseudo-kabbalah phase really irritating, but then again I find scientology really irritating.

Do you speak any Yiddish? My grandmother spoke Yiddish, and it was funny because growing up, as a kid, I didn't know that some of my vocabulary wasn't english. I would ask sick people if I could feel their keppe, and then not understand why they couldn't understand me.

I regret none of the history, and, also in response to Dauer, I do "mitzvas," but strictly through charity organizations/health organizations and never handouts to beggars (who never seem to make good use of the money, being that the majority of them are drug addicts or have mental problems.)

Moishe, I hope you forgive my frankness, but I find controversial, probing conversations much more interesting on the internet.

Dauer - if you need oral history, then the Torah isn't something you can literally read and believe in. That was my point. And sex through a hole in a sheet is done upon the marriage night in strict orthodox jewish tradition, isn't it? I may be confused about the religion here, but I thought it was orthodox jew. Maybe it was something a sect of Judaism picked up trough contact with the Persians. Like I said, I get the torah and the talmud, and other jewish readings confused, it has been a long time.

And no, facts are just fine. Myths are fun and interesting can can be used for teaching - I love science fiction or a good tale, but that doesn't make it reality.

Why on earth are you calling my character into question? I didn't say there was anything wrong with "mitzvas" and good deeds as a concept exist in many world religions, and I believe in them even though I don't have a god. Being atheist/agnostic has absolutely nothing to do with immorality.

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Portal Star wrote:

I see that you acknowledge that the Torah, in itself, is tedious and confusing and generally not applicable in its direct form to our every day life. That is basically what I was shooting for.

When we approach it midrashically, even without any other text, there is much to be gained from it. It's a matter of asking questions and trying to understand the answers.

Quote:

On a side note I find this celebrity pseudo-kabbalah phase really irritating, but then again I find scientology really irritating.

I think most Jews who stay informed agree about that.

Quote:

I regret none of the history, and, also in response to Dauer, I do "mitzvas," but strictly through charity organizations/health organizations and never handouts to beggars (who never seem to make good use of the money, being that the majority of them are drug addicts or have mental problems.)

I don't think most people hand money directly to beggars for the same reason.

Quote:

Dauer - if you need oral history, then the Torah isn't something you can literally read and believe in. That was my point.

What were you arguing against? I'm not Orthodox. I just consider myself a Jew. Why is it so imporant to "believe" in Torah? What do you need to believe? Belief is what defines a Christian, but a Jew could better be defined by a general sense of awe. Heard of Heschel?

Quote:

And sex through a hole in a sheet is done upon the marriage night in strict orthodox jewish tradition, isn't it? I may be confused about the religion here, but I thought it was orthodox jew. Maybe it was something a sect of Judaism picked up trough contact with the Persians.

I think that's an old wives' tale. Someone mused to me it might be based on non-Jews seeing someone with a Tallit Katan, which would serve the purpose perfectly. Like I said, if anything kosher sex means absolutely nothing between the man and the woman. But hey, maybe moishe will surprise me by saying he has a special sheet at home. I've never seen them sold at the Jewish stores near me, nor at the online Judaica boutiques.

Quote:

And no, facts are just fine. Myths are fun and interesting can can be used for teaching - I love science fiction or a good tale, but that doesn't make it reality.

You seem to have an "all or nothing" way of approaching Judaism. How do you know that the myths weren't just a way of intertwining spiritual insight with a shared History?

What do you think the authors meant when they said that the sea parted and the people walked across? Why?

What does it convey to say that God breathed life into man's nostrils? When we breathe into something, where do we breathe from?

Quote:

Why on earth are you calling my character into question?

Sorry. I think that came across wrong. I wasn't calling your character into question, just your level of contact with a Judaism that cared about finding spirituality through Judaism.

Quote:

Being atheist/agnostic has absolutely nothing to do with immorality.

I agree. There's something we agree on.

Dauer

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Oy
Okay, the secret is out. But, please, don't spread it around or everybody will want to do it that way.
Have you ever tried sex through a sheep? Don't knock it until....
What?
Oh, a sheet....
Embarrassed

No. No sexy sheets. Whiskey freedom sexy. No sheets.
I agree it was probably the tallis katan thing.

To be properly contentious and obstreperous, the Orthodox Jews are the only ones with staying power. Therefore, ergo, we will be the last men (and women) standing in the end.
There are very few (none?) grandchildren of Reform or secular Jews.

A bissel Yiddish, but I get it all through mein kinderlach. They speak Yiddish with varying degrees of proficiency. I was never schooled in Yiddish. Very American, am I. (as one might percieve vis a vis my logo)

Frank away. I would love to explain the Orthodox world as it really is.
You have no idea how much fun I have.
Seriously.
Laughing

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