Twin paradox chancy

@centrox,

centrox wrote:

Anyhow, he got the Nobel prize. Did you?

Well, ya know, Dr. George Smoot recently received the nobel prize for physics for his work relating to the cosmic microwave background.

According to him, the CMB is a "cosmic rest frame" which can be used to calculate the absolute motion of the earth (and other cosmic bodies) through space.

While he acknowledges that this seems to contradict Einstein, he claims it really doesn't, because, he says, Al never said there was no universal rest frame, only that he didn't think we could detect one at the time.

Cosmologists now conclude that the earth (and the entire Milky Way, as well as other galaxies) are moving through space toward "the Great Attractor," at a rate of speed that exceeds a half a million miles an hour--not anything slow, eh?

We have, in our particle accelerating labs, accelerated particles to speeds of 99.9999999988% C. So, when travelling in the same direction as the earth's motion (in the direction of Virgo) they are exceeding the speed of light relative to the CMB.

1 Reply

@centrox,

if you are saying Einstein is crap,

No, Cen, I didn't. See many postings above and elsewhere

Quote:

Anyhow, he got the Nobel prize. Did you?

Not yet

0 Replies

@layman,

layman wrote:

We have, in our particle accelerating labs, accelerated particles to speeds of 99.9999999988% C. So, when travelling in the same direction as the earth's motion (in the direction of Virgo) they are exceeding the speed of light relative to the CMB.

It never happens. The angle towards the great attractor is 14° off true N.

The Earth cork screws in direction of travel in orbit around the galactic disk. How is this known? If you examine the plane of the milkyway it runs almost perfectly due N and S most of the year. With a slight curve to the west in other parts of the year.

Earths orbit around the sun essentially would draw out a cork screw path since our sun is "tilted" with regard to the galactic plane. Not parallel at all. The Sun's north pole almost points directly toward its path in orbit of the galaxy.

This means Cern would need to be tilted almost 73° to the vertical for your hypothesis to be true.

Sorry but nice try.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Heh, nice try yourself, eh?

The earth is, itself, moving in a certain direction. Our labs are going with it. Call that direction NNE, or whatever--that's also the direction the lab is going. If any particle is going around in circles, on earth, then it is alternately going either with, or against, the "flow" of the earth itself.

Furthermore, we could aim a particle in any direction we wanted; we wouldn't have to move the entire earth to do it, even assuming (wrongly) that would be required in this case.

2 Replies

@layman,

layman wrote:

Heh, nice try yourself, eh?

The earth is, itself, moving in a certain direction. Our labs are going with it. We could aim a particle in any direction we wanted; we wouldn't have to move the entire earth to do it.

But, that aside, if any particle is going around in circles, on earth, then it is alternately going either with, or against, the "flow" of the earth itself.

If you are talking about spin of the Earth there would be two points and only one of them would impact velocity of a particle for less than a billionth of a second. The rest would be a curve up to and a curve down to those two points.

99% C + 1000mph is negligible and highly doubtful it would push the particle at C or above.

Want to try another motion instead of spin, whacha got next?

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@layman,

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3BBS1yq7U7s/T-YBT2pwTVI/AAAAAAAAB5s/RQsap5O-VQA/s1600/Ecliptic+vs+Galactic+Plane.png

Notice the tilt of the solar system orbit plus 23° of Earths tilt relative to its orbital plane

https://andrewrhodesphoto.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/geometry-of-milky-way-galactic-plane-by-andrew-rhodes1.png

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Nice picture there. Of course it shows no motion. But, notwithstanding any motion in orbit, or in the earth's daily rotation, at any given instant the whole solar system is moving through space in the direction of Virgo. Not just the earth, and not just "some parts" of the earth. The whole earth, the whole solar system, the whole galaxy.

You're just confusing yourself.

2 Replies

@layman,

layman wrote:

Nice picture there. Of course it shows no motion. But, notwithstanding any motion in orbit, or in the earth's daily rotation, at any given instant the whole solar system is moving through space in the direction of Virgo. Not just the earth, and not just "some parts" of the earth. The whole earth, the whole solar system, the whole galaxy.

You're just confusing yourself.

No I just explained that. Put a way your ego, you are not a genius. I just stated the angle. You already know the motion of the earth. It must follow its orbital plane as I have shown in second image.

1 Reply

@layman,

Layman, I am well aware that the entire galaxy is moving towards the great attractor at over 400k a second. Its incredibly fast, mind blowingly fast. But still the angle of movement trajectory is wrong to impact particles moving at Cern.

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@Krumple,

Quote:

You already know the motion of the earth. It must follow its orbital plane as I have shown in second image.

OK, Krumps, let's take this slow. Everything in your picture, and I mean EVERYTHING, is itself moving in the exact same direction. See the point?

The earth could be pointed at any angle whatsoever, with respect to any other object in the universe, however arbitrarily chosen, and could be moving at any given speed with respect to those objects, but that would be completely irrelevant to the point here. Whatever those particular angles or speeds are, the earth (and everything on it) is STILL moving toward Virgo.

You need to focus on what's relevant, not misleading non sequiturs.

1 Reply

@layman,

layman wrote:

Quote:
You already know the motion of the earth. It must follow its orbital plane as I have shown in second image.

OK, Krumps, let's take this slow. Everything in your picture, and I mean EVERYTHING, is itself moving in the exact same direction. See the point?

The earth could be pointed at any angle whatsoever, with respect to any other object in the universe, however arbitrarily chosen, and could be moving at any given speed with respect to those objects, but that would be completely irrelevant to the point here. Whatever those particular angles or speeds are, the earth (and everything on it) is STILL moving toward Virgo.

You need to focus on what's relevant, not misleading non sequiturs.

Is the plane that the particles move along at Cern pointed at Virgo? No. This means they are impacted only off of their direction of travel.

As I stated, if Cern were tilted 73° to its vertical its plane would parallel the galaxies movement towards the great attractor.

ONLY then would your hypothesis be true. The ONLY way those particles are affected are at their tangents. Which means they aren't affected much at all.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Quote:

Is the plane that the particles move along at Cern pointed at Virgo? No. This means they are impacted only off of their direction of travel.

If they're going in circles, on something that is itself going it circles, then particular angles are changing constantly.

Let's take the beer can on my desk, for example. At times it is moving "away" from the sun, and at times it is going "towards" the sun. Why? Because the earth makes a complete rotation with respect to the sun every 24 hours. My desk, and the beer can on it, is rotating with it, regardless of it's angle with respect to the sun.

The same would be true if the beer can itself is spinning on it's axis, like a top. That would be irrelevant, really, although that would provide many more possible "angles" of travel. The beer can is always going "with" the spin of the earth. Therefore it is always moving "toward" the sun, or "away" form it, regardless of any other motion it might have.

2 Replies

@layman,

layman wrote:

Quote:
Is the plane that the particles move along at Cern pointed at Virgo? No. This means they are impacted only off of their direction of travel.

If they're going in circles, on something that is itself going it circles, then particular angles are changing constantly.

Let's take the beer can on my desk, for example. At times it is moving "away" from the sun, and at times it is going "towards" the sun. Why? Because the earth makes a complete rotation with respect to the sun every 24 hours. My desk, and the beer can on it, is rotating with it, regardless of it's angle with respect to the sun.

The same would be true if the beer can itself is spinning on it's axis, like a top. That would be irrelevant, really, although that would provide many more possible "angles" of travel. The beer can is always going "with" the spin of the earth. Therefore it is always moving "toward" the sun, or "away" form it, regardless of any other motion it might have.

I am well aware of this but you are looking at the movement of the particle wrong.

If the tangent of the particle is x
But motion of the earth is at y

You can't add their motion. Because x and y are not on the same axis.

I agree that the particle is being affected but it sure as hell is NOT in its direction of travel. Its in one of its tangents. Which is negligible.

Imagine you have a car moving forward straight along a straight road. You fire a gun at 85° off the direction the car is moving.

You would not add the car's velocity to the bullet's velocity because the bullets trajectory is different than the car's.

Sure the bullet would have a tiny amount of angular momentum due to the direction the car was moving. But it's so tiny its negligible.

Same for Cern. The angle off tangent for relative velocities is NOT enough to push the particle past C.

Sorry, but unless you change the angle in which Cern sits, your hypothesis is non effective.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Quote:

Imagine you have a car moving forward straight along a straight road. You fire a gun at 85° off the direction the car is moving.

Now imagine that you had a gun that caused the bullet to travel in a never ending circle instead of a straight line, eh? Then imagine that the earth is itself is rotating. Then imagine that the earth is orbiting the sun. Then imagine that the seasons change, due to the tilt of the earth. Then imagine that CERN is not the only particle accelerator on earth. What do you come up with now?

1 Reply

@layman,

Wherever you are on earth, there are always two (out of many possible) opposite directions. For example, one direction which points directly toward Virgo, and the opposite one, which points 180 degrees away from Virgo.

When you're going in circles, you are at times going toward Virgo, and at times going away from it if the constant direction the earth is travelling is always toward Virgo.

1 Reply

@layman,

layman wrote:

Wherever you are on earth, there are always two (out of many possible) opposite directions. For example, one direction which points directly toward Virgo, and the opposite one, which points 180 degrees away from Virgo.

When you're going in circles, you are at times going toward Virgo, and at times going away from it if the constant direction the earth is travelling is always toward Virgo.

Okay hold on a second. You are using a spheroid for the Earth and not a flat disk right?

If you build Cern at the north pole and one at the equator, their angles relative to each other are 90° different.

What is the exact tangent line for the Earth moving toward Virgo (which its not, the galaxy is)

CERN's angle and that tangent line never parallel.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Quote:

What is the exact tangent line for the Earth moving toward Virgo (which its not, the galaxy is)

CERN's angle and that tangent line never parallel.

You're wrong. The earth IS moving toward Virgo, and so is the galaxy. You act as though they're going in different directions. All objects in our galaxy have one common, shared, motion, i.e., towards Virgo.

You're trying to analyze things in terms of an absolutely static state of affairs. But it aint that way. Relative to themselves, the north pole and the equator are 90 degrees apart, sure. But those respective points are themselves moving, and hence constantly changing direction with respect to other objects in the universe.

Take any particular portion of the zodiac, for example. With respect to that portion, BOTH the points at the pole and the one at the equator are always moving either toward, or away, from it.

1 Reply

@layman,

layman wrote:

Quote:
What is the exact tangent line for the Earth moving toward Virgo (which its not, the galaxy is)

CERN's angle and that tangent line never parallel.

You're wrong. The earth IS moving toward Virgo, and so is the galaxy. You act as though they're going in different directions. All objects in our galaxy have one common, shared, motion, i.e., towards Virgo.

You're trying to analyze things in terms of an absolutely static state of affairs. But it aint that way. Relative to themselves, the north pole and the equator are 90 degrees apart, sure. But those respective points are themselves moving, and hence constantly changing direction with respect to other objects in the universe.

Take any particular portion of the zodiac, for example. With respect to that portion, BOTH the points at the pole and the one at the equator are always moving either toward, or away, from it.

Its funny you think you are the only person who has had this idea.

NOTHING I said had anything to do with being static.

As I have stated the ONLY way you can have impact if the particle at Cern is if you tilt Cern 73° to its verticle.

How the **** do you think I know this? Because you are not they only person who had this idea.

No matter what time of day, morning, noon, night, no matter what time of year, all irrelevant. If you tilt Cern at 73° (to its verticle) it will point in the direction of the great attractor at all times of the day or year.

You think this was just made up. The reason it works is due to the tilt of our solar system. Its a neat fact. Had the solar system been tilted any other angle this would not be true.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Quote:

No matter what time of day, morning, noon, night, no matter what time of year, all irrelevant. If you tilt Cern at 73° (to its verticle) it will point in the direction of the great attractor at all times of the day or year.

As I said, you're confusing yourself with red herrings. We're not talking about looking at Virgo through a telescope, or anything similar to that.

Beyond that, what you're saying is incomprehensible. Suppose, at CERN, you point a telescope at Virgo ("incline it 73 degrees"), at midnight. Will it still be pointing at Virgo at noon the next day, ya figure?

Let's just drop the topic. It's going nowhere.

1 Reply

@layman,

layman wrote:

Quote:
No matter what time of day, morning, noon, night, no matter what time of year, all irrelevant. If you tilt Cern at 73° (to its verticle) it will point in the direction of the great attractor at all times of the day or year.

As I said, you're confusing yourself with red herrings. We're not talking about looking at Virgo through a telescope, or anything similar to that.

Beyond that, what you're saying is incomprehensible. Suppose, at CERN, you point a telescope at Virgo ("incline it 73 degrees"), at midnight. Will it still be pointing at Virgo at noon the next day, ya figure?

Let's just drop the topic. It's going nowhere.

You are the one talking about pointing a telescope at Virgo. Of course it would not stay lined up with Virgo.

Cern is a large circle right. For half the trip the particle would move "closer" to Virgo NOT directly toward it. The particle is not moving in a straight line (unlike viewing through telescope). The other half of the trip the particle is moving a way from Virgo. But you have to tilt Cern to make this work.

1 Reply

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