Truth and Language

Frank, I agree with you that we cannot know anything with absolute certainty; we don't even know what that can mean. I experience the "screen before me" and that seems certain. EXCEPT that I do not know what is the absolute nature of SCREEN or ME (or before and aft). Ultimately, we are all, or should be, abnostics. But our agnosticism must apply as well to all the things you seem to take for granted as real. You seem to confine the term REALITY to grand matters like God or Truth. That's fine; such notions should be included, but the mystic would include EVERYTHING. Nothing is taken for granted. All is, finally, illusory in so far as it is artificial: our construction. When you tell Bluesky that "we are talking about insights into the REALITY of existence" I would add, as the most important reality, our "true nature." This refers to the nature of experience itself, the joint phenomena of "self" and "other."

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JLNobody wrote:

Frank, I agree with you that we cannot know anything with absolute certainty; we don't even know what that can mean. I experience the "screen before me" and that seems certain. EXCEPT that I do not know what is the absolute nature of SCREEN or ME (or before and aft). Ultimately, we are all, or should be, abnostics. But our agnosticism must apply as well to all the things you seem to take for granted as real. You seem to confine the term REALITY to grand matters like God or Truth. That's fine; such notions should be included, but the mystic would include EVERYTHING. Nothing is taken for granted. All is, finally, illusory in so far as it is artificial: our construction. When you tell Bluesky that "we are talking about insights into the REALITY of existence" I would add, as the most important reality, our "true nature." This refers to the nature of experience itself, the joint phenomena of "self" and "other."

I agree with you, JL.

I have no substantial argument with what you are saying.

But by this time...after three explanations...BlueSky knows what was being discussed.

Be that as it may...I doubt a reasonable case can be made that meditation, religion, scripture...definitely CAN or definitely CANNOT give us ANY INSIGHTS INTO THE REALITY that includes the things you just mentioned as being part of the greater reality.

BlueSky, for some reason, wants to insist that it is impossible that meditation CANNOT give us any insights into the REALITY.

It appears as though we really do not know what the REALITY IS...and there seems to be no way we can count on religion, scripture, meditation, or anything else to give us insights into that.

I have no problem with continuing to investigate. I have made that abundantly clear in many of my posts. And nothing I've said in this thread includes any thoughts of stopping any kind of investigations into the REALILTY.

BlueSky injected a formula into this discussion. The question I asked him about that formula does not require making any judgements about any of these things. It was strictly a math question. If one of the terms in the equation he presented were zero (a hypothetical)...would what he said at the end be still be true.

It wouldn't, JL...and BlueSky knows that. But he wants to play a game. I am playing it with him.

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Now for whatever reasons...you want to blindly assert that meditation MUST come up with some insights into that REALITY.

You got it wrong, Again. I asserted against that. That too is an extreme position... P=1, just as P=0, which I don't subscribe to.

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P=0 is the extremity corresponding to a blind assertion that meditation CANNOT give any insights

No it is not...

Well... it is. That is how I understand rules of probability math . Your position doesn't mathematically translate to P=0. But we can agree to disagree. Smile

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You are absolutely correct, BlueSky...I did misread your comment.

I apologize for not being more careful.

That's fine.

The issue of truth and language is tricky. I wish Math was more accessible, as it provides an impersonal expression of views especially in science.

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blueSky wrote:

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Now for whatever reasons...you want to blindly assert that meditation MUST come up with some insights into that REALITY.

You got it wrong, Again. I asserted against that. That too is an extreme position... P=1, just as P=0, which I don't subscribe to.

No, I haven't got it wrong at all.

You are the one saying that P=0 cannot be.

You have said it in several different ways.

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Probability can have value from 0 to 1. 1 for definite success. 0.5 for 50% chance of success. 0 for definite failure. Pm=0 is equivalent of saying that meditation will definitely never ever reveal any reality whatsoever. Would you assert that? I wouldn't.

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If you are really open to any possibility of success with meditation, you cannot assign value of 0. Pm=0 is the case of assertion that Meditation will always definitely fail for any person who may practice it. In fact this position is close to a fundamentalist asserting that every word written and interpreted in a particular version scripture is pure 100% truth. P=0 or P=1 are both as fundamentalistic as asserting definitely that "There is God" or "There is no god" I am surprised as an agnostic you take one of them with respect to meditation.

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P=0 is the extremity corresponding to a blind assertion that meditation CANNOT give any insights, just as P=1, the other extrimity that corresponds to a definite claim that meditation MUST give insights. I suspect we both don't subscribe to any of these extrimities..., hence cannot assign them as valid values to translate our position. Hence the rest of the conclusion follows.

[/b]

Right along you have been pooh-poohing the possibility of P=0.

In order to do that...you are insisting that meditation MUST come up with some insights into the REALITY.

No, BlueSky, I don't have it wrong. You do.

But you still seem unable to acknowledge that you are wrong.

Bad habit.

You're gonna have a hard time breaking it.

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...you are insisting that meditation MUST come up with some insights into the REALITY

Wrong Again, I am not insisting that. Perhaps, you want me to. Smile

Let me try one more time...

Can meditation reveal truth? Millions have and will meditate over 1000s of years. Can any single person among them knew or will ever know truth thru meditation?

We agree this is a guess. So we call it a mathematical probability Pm.
>> 0 being extremely prejudiced guess that 'No, Meditation will never ever give any insights into the REALITY'
>> 1 being another extreme prejudiced guess that 'Meditation MUST come up with some insights into the REALITY'
I reject 0 as well as 1, for being extremely prejudiced guesses.

A sensible value of Pm is some unknown non-zero fraction less than 1. For a person generally refusing to take any guesses, why are you be too quick to make a convenient guess (0) ?

Sometimes numbers are just more revealing than the words.

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BlueSky...obviously you are one of those infantile people who simply cannot acknowledge when they are wrong.

We got a couple of such people here in A2K...so you are not alone.

To argue with you is futile...and I'll just break this off.

You are absolutely wrong on this issue...and if you grow up and develop enough integrity, honesty, and regard for honor to acknowledge it...let me know.

We can continue our discussion at that point.

Until then...I'll just get a laugh out of your pettiness.

By the way...you silly little remark about me being unwilling to make any guesses is also wrong.

I make guesses all the time...and I clearly identify them as guesses.

I don't make them when I do not have enough information upon which to base meaningful guesses...but often I do.

I'm guessing, for instance, that you are pig-headed regularly in your life...and not just in this thread.

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personal revelation has about as much value in arriving at the true nature of REALITY as scriptural revelation...which is to say...

...NONE AT ALL

is an opinion when really tested reveals that it refuses to give even fair benefit of doubt (to meditation), hence a very narrow minded one. A prejudice can be disguised as speculation for mere argumentative immunity. That is the mischief of language.

But this is only an opinion. So I refuse to judge or speculate on anyone merely on the basis of their opinions. I think it is as dull witted as judging a woman as 'dumb blond' on the basis of her hairs. Appearances, emotions, concepts and opinions are impermanent. If the truth is of any permanent nature, it must transcend all this, including the mischief of the language.

Wish you all happy new year!

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blueSky wrote:

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personal revelation has about as much value in arriving at the true nature of REALITY as scriptural revelation...which is to say...

...NONE AT ALL

is an opinion when really tested reveals that it refuses to give even fair benefit of doubt (to meditation), hence a very narrow minded one. A prejudice can be disguised as speculation for mere argumentative immunity. That is the mischief of language.

Wow...what a sleezeball piece of shyt this is.

A quote taken out of context in a way that changes it completely.

Well...when you have been shown to be as wrong as I have shown you to be, BlueSky, I guess the only thing to do is to resort to sleezeball shyt.

The entire text from which that pretend quote was taken (directed to JL) was:

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My point is that anyone falling back on conversations with gods...or with "getting in touch with reality through meditation"...CANNOT be sure he/she is not deluding him/herself.

We are in agreement on that.

You recognize it as well as I.

I am not asking anyone to "prove a negative."

I am simply asking everyone to consider that any private revelation about REALITY may, in fact, be nothing more than self-delusion.

And that being the case, personal revelation has about as much value in arriving at the true nature of REALITY as scriptural revelation...which is to say...

...NONE AT ALL.

And as I said clearly here, BS (before your hamfisted, dishonest editing)...under the circumstances that one cannot eliminate the possibility that he/she MAY be deluding him/herself...there is no value to it.

None at all.

In any case, I explained all that to you in this post, BS...

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1094545#1094545

I went further in a post to JL...

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1094552#1094552

In a third post, I wrote:

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You obviously have a very closed mind on this, BSso it may not be worthwhile to continuebut, if I am anythingI am persistent.

The question I posed does not assume anything about whether or not any benefit can be derived from meditation or not.

We were discussing whether or not meditationor scripturecan give ANY INSIGHTS INTO THE REALITY OF EXISTENCE. What it actually isif there is a God or are no godsif there was a beginningif there will be an endingANY OF THOSE UNKNOWNS.

NowI pointblank DO NOT KNOW if religionscriptureor meditationCAN GIVE ANY INSIGHTS INTO THESE UNKNOWN. I also do not know that religion, scripture, or meditation CANNOT give any insights into these unknowns.

That issue is an unknown to meand I do not have any unambiguous evidence upon which to base a guess that "some insights can be obtained" or "no insights can be obtained."

Trying to make it seem that the qualifiers were not there is such lowlife nonsense, I think I'll take a shower after responding to you, BS.

I hope some time in the new year you learn how to deal with ethical, honest debate.

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then only you can assign P=0. But then such an opinion is prejudiced extremity. Also, if anyone says that results of meditation are beyond any doubt (P=1 case), that also is another prejudiced extremity that I don't buy.

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blueSky wrote:

Frank, address this simple question head on Do you give any benefit of doubt at all to meditation as a valuable tool for inquiring into reality?

I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA IF MEDITATION GIVES ANY INSIGHTS INTO REALITY AT ALL. I AM NOT ABLE TO SAY IT DOES...AND I AM NOT ABLE TO SAY IT DOESN'T.

I am not willing to guess "there is no way it gives insights" and I am not willing to guess "there is no way it does not give insights."

You apparently are willing, for no reason that you can articulate...that "there is no way is does not give insights." You insist that it has to give at least some insights...or you would not be insisting that the factor can never be zero.

You are...as I mention above and with which you disagreed...INSISTING THAT MEDITATION MUST GIVE SOME INSIGHTS SOMEWHERE!

Now...if you want to continue to insist that your blind, baseless guess has some value...do so. I will not indulge it in any way.

And as for the inclusion of the phrase A VALUABLE TOOL...well, that is so silly, I don't really want to deal with it...but...

...it reminds me of the theists who insist that the existence of the world is proof enough that there is a God...and then insist also that the God has to be the god of the Bible.

It is a silly, baseless guess...which leads to an even sillier further guess.

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If yes, we have no debate. But then you cannot assign value of 0 to P in the equation (as a math rule), hence the rest of my conclusions follow.

My question was a hypothetical. If the value is zero.

If you had any sense of integrity or honor...you would already have acknowledged that if the value were zero...the conclusion WOULD NOT FOLLOW.

But you obviously do not have that sense...so you are stuck with this nonsense you are spewing.

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then only you can assign P=0. But then such an opinion is prejudiced extremity. Also, if anyone says that results of meditation are beyond any doubt (P=1 case), that also is another prejudiced extremity that I don't buy.

I have made it abundantly clear that I do not know if meditation gives any insights into reality...or if meditation gives no insights into reality.

I am on solid ground here.

You are the one INSISTING THAT THE LATTER IS AN IMPOSSIBILITY. You are insisting that it cannot be zero. I do not know if it can be zero or not...but I know it is possible that it can be zero.

And that is the basis for my HYPOTHETICAL.

You are the one building your case on quicksand.

Open your eyes...and you will see this. Keep them tightly closed...and you won't.

Either way...life goes on...and I wish you peace and contentment in 2005.

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You are...as I mention above and with which you disagreed...INSISTING THAT MEDITATION MUST GIVE SOME INSIGHTS SOMEWHERE

No I am not. If that was the case I would insisting on using P=1. I don't.

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I have made it abundantly clear that I do not know if meditation gives any insights into reality...or if meditation gives no insights into reality.

I share this position. But I translate it mathematically as a probability P where 0 < P < 1.

P=0 can only be a hypothetical value. An extremity where it stops being uncertainty just as P=1. Both these values assert an assurance which your position (as well as mine) doesn't subscribe to. That really is the key reason to discard P=0 and P=1.

Anyway, as you said life goes onTime to move on.

Wish you well.

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You gentlemen are arguing the question of the effectiveness of what you understand or mean by meditation and/or Reality. Let me offer for discussion some tentative definitions: Minimally, Reality is just WHATEVER IS concretely (not in terms of abstract theoretical principles) for you right now, and meditation is, minimally, a very close, non-ideational examination of (a seeing directly into) one's experienced Reality. This "looking into" (realization) is not the same as "looking at" (a cognitive grasping of) Reality in a dualistic framework wherein you (subject) engage or confront "reality" (object). Once you've done that, non-dualistically, even for a moment, you will not spend another second wretching your minds over the question as you've framed it.
Be back later this afternoon.

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