Everyone here has read his share of Grimm and Anderson. Of all the stories that we have read, what particular one does contain a deep and meaningful philosophy of life for you?
I remember with clarity, The Tinder Box, and in looking back, I see that the entire story, witches and all, has a ring of truth to it.
Folktales and fairy tales have been my bible in many ways, rather literally -- I was raised to think of the bible as another collection of folktales, and gave it equal standing with all the rest. That's not a denigration of the bible, but an elevation of the rest. Joseph Campbell is a favorite of mine.
Deep and meaningful philosophy of life... hmm... I'll have to think about that more. Great question, though.
0 Replies
Letty
1
Reply
Fri 15 Oct, 2004 10:43 am
Soz, I'm not familiar with Joseph Campbell, but The Tinder Box is apropo in the sense that it was about a penniless soldier returning from war. He discovered, in the recesses of an old tree, a room that was full of treasure, but guarded by a witch. There were three chests filled with different valuables, but guarded by three odd dogs.
In precis, he learned how to use a tinder box to call up a particular dog and found himself quite affluent. He, of course, had a multitude of friends, after that, because he spent all of his money on riotous living and supplying these friends with a free lunch. Once the soldier had exhausted his "magic" wealth, the friends disappeared.
There is a philosophy in this fairy tale. It's called the band wagon effect. When we're hot, we're hot. When we're not, we're not.
0 Replies
sozmac
1
Reply
Fri 15 Oct, 2004 01:32 pm
I love fairytales. I love how dark they can be.
I studied theories around fairytales for my degree. How most of the imagery is archetypal (jungian theories) and it is these archetypes that are so hugely satisfying.
Nowadays, people try and make them pc, but the darkness is important.
I don't know the 2 fairytales mentioned above.
Presently I love all fairytales that have evil step mothers as I'm not too happy about my childrens step mother!
(even though I know the evil step mother is actually how the child deals with mothers when they are cross. It's easier to separate 'good' mom from 'evil' mom)
The imagery in aladdin I always find astounding. A boy rubs his 'lamp' to unleash a genie.
ok.
Or the prince that awakens sleeping beauty...he pulls out his 'sword' to fight through the 'bush' and lo, roses spring up and the 'petals' open the way for his sword. say no more.
I was obsessed, as a child with rumplestiltskin..which is a positive one, I guess- to believe in the ability to spin hay into gold. And trick the dwarf. And marry the king and have her child. Yup I see why I liked it.
Tho, generally marriage in fairytales symolizes the union of our male and female aspects as opposed to romantic love, sorry.
0 Replies
rufio
1
Reply
Fri 15 Oct, 2004 01:44 pm
I'm sorry, Letty, after everything I've learned in anthro, and a book on the anthropological perspective of Little Red Riding Hood, I can no longer think about fairy tales as any kind of objectively meaningful media.
That said, there's a lot of philosophy in Into the Woods, which is not rightly a fairy tale, but which is similar enough, I suppose.
0 Replies
Letty
1
Reply
Fri 15 Oct, 2004 01:45 pm
Hey, sozmac. Welcome to A2K. For a moment there, I thought you were Sozobe. <smile>
Interesting that you studied the implications behind the tale, and I think that's what I'm trying to ascertain.
I have a book here titled Politically Correct Fairy tales, coincidence, no?
You're looking for the psychology, and I'm thinking philosophy.
Are you suggesting that the meaning behind these fanciful stories is sexual? Well, my goodness. I never once thought that, but I do see your point.
0 Replies
Letty
1
Reply
Fri 15 Oct, 2004 01:47 pm
Hey, rufio. Missed your post. Refresh my memory on Into The Woods.
As for fairy tales, The Juniper Tree was one of my favorites. I much preferred the Grimms to the Andersons. I was lucky to find a complete Grimm collection, unedited, with many stories never included in popular anthologies.
0 Replies
Walter Hinteler
1
Reply
Fri 15 Oct, 2004 01:57 pm
Well, Letty, since the Tinderbox really is a "literary [art] fairy tale" opposite to "folk fairy tales", I do think that it's philosophy is even more intended than in the others.
Especially Hans Christian Andersen's fairy tales "are personal in style and contain elements of autobiography and contemporary social satire".
Once upon a time there was a handsome princess ..... and she kissed the little frog Walter, who then had to start working again with the other six young kids ... .... . and they lived happily ever after. :wink:
0 Replies
rufio
1
Reply
Fri 15 Oct, 2004 01:59 pm
Well.....
It starts out with three fairy tales simultaneously: Jack and his mother from Jack and the Beanstalk, Cinderella, and a Baker and his wife. The Baker and his wife want to have a child but can't. Jack's mother tells him to sell their cow because she can't give milk. Cinderella wants to go to the ball, but can't. Then there's a little bit with LRRH, and a wicked witch tells B&W that they can have a child if they find a list of things (which turn out to be elements from various other fairy tales: LRRH's hood, Rapunzel's hair, Cinderella's sllpper, and Jack's cow). So they go looking for them. Cindi goes into the woods to talk to her dead mother and get a disguise to go to the ball, and Jack goes out to sell his cow. B&W find magic beans that B's father stole from the witch (the reason they had the spell of barronness cast upon them). Anyway, that's the basic kind of story. There's lots of little mini scenes with different morals of their own in the first act. W tricks Jack into selling his cow for beans, and then argues the ends versus the means with B. Jack goes up a beanstalk and sings about how it changed his perspective. LRRH gets tricked by the wolf and sings about loss of innocence. Cindi's prince and Rapunzel's prince sing about not being about to get the girls they want. Rapunzel and the witch (who is the witch who enslaved Rapunzel, who turns out to be B's sister) sing about oppressive parenting. Then act two comes and everything kind of turns on its head. Anyway, I have to go to class now, but that's the gist of it. It sort of distills fairy tales into their cultural meanings and draws the philosophy out. I'll find someone where link the lyrics when I get back, and you can see what I mean.
0 Replies
Letty
1
Reply
Fri 15 Oct, 2004 02:09 pm
Thanks, Cav, for that link. My word. I think I have a complete works of the Grimm brothers myself. Yes, Anderson can be very dark. Ever read "The Little Girl Who Trod on a Loaf"? Yikes!
Wow! rufio. That's a lot to absorb in a single setting. I'll have to read that more carefully.
Walter, now your post only needs one reading. Heh! Heh! Wonder why it's always a frog and not some other amphibian.
Just one aside. Rapunzel was originally Rampion, I think
0 Replies
Walter Hinteler
1
Reply
Fri 15 Oct, 2004 02:19 pm
Letty wrote:
Just one aside. Rapunzel was originally Rampion, I think
'Rapunzel' was first mentioned in Lo cunto de li cunti (50 zestful tales) by Giambattista Basile .... as "Petrosinella".
0 Replies
cavfancier
1
Reply
Fri 15 Oct, 2004 02:21 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Letty wrote:
Just one aside. Rapunzel was originally Rampion, I think
'Rapunzel' was first mentioned in Lo cunto de li cunti (50 zestful tales) by Giambattista Basile .... as "Petrosinella".
Damn, Walter. This thread reminds me of how much I learn when I come to this site. Rapunzel and rampion are leafy type edibles, no? Basile? Never heard of him.
0 Replies
Walter Hinteler
1
Reply
Fri 15 Oct, 2004 02:31 pm
Correct about the salad, Letty (rampion is just the English word for Rapunzel).
Quote:
It is often difficult to distinguish between tales of literary and oral origin, because folktales have received literary treatment from early times, and, conversely, literary tales have found their way back into the oral tradition. Early Italian collections such as Le piacevoli notti (1550, vol. 1; 1553, vol. 2; "The Pleasant Nights") of Gianfrancesco Straparola and Il Pentamerone (1636; originally published [1634] in Neapolitan dialect as Lo cunto de li cunti) of Giambattista Basile contain reworkings in a highly literary style of such stories as "Snow White," "Sleeping Beauty," and "The Maiden in the Tower."
Quote:
Giambattista Basile,
born c. 1575, , Naples
died Feb. 23, 1632, Giugliano, Campania
Neapolitan soldier, public official, poet, and short-story writer whose Lo cunto de li cunti, 50 zestful tales written in Neapolitan, was one of the earliest such collections based on folktales and served as an important source both for the later fairy-tale writers Charles Perrault in France in the 17th century and the brothers Grimm in Germany in the 19th century, and for the Italian commedia dell'arte dramatist Carlo Gozzi in the 18th century.
Basile was a soldier as a young man and began a career in government after moving to Naples in 1608. He later was part of the Mantuan court of Ferdinando Gonzaga, and then moved on to become governor, successively, of several small Italian states.
Basile was most at home in Naples, and during his career he became fascinated with the folklore, customs, literature, music, and dialect of the Neapolitan people. He began serious study of things Neapolitan and began to collect fairy tales and folktales, setting them down in a lively Neapolitan style with much local flavour and all the ornament and flamboyance of his influential contemporary Giambattista Marino.
Basile's collection, Lo cunto de li cunti (1634; "The Story of Stories"; best Italian translation B. Croce, 1925; best English translation N.B. Penzer, The Pentamerone, 2 vol., 1932), was published posthumously under the anagrammatic pseudonym Gian Alesio Abbattutis and referred to by its first editor as Il pentamerone because of the similarity of its framework to that of Boccaccio's Decameron.
In Lo cunto de li cunti, a prince and his wife, a slave who has been posing as a princess, are entertained for 5 days by 10 women, who tell them 50 stories, among which are the familiar tales of Puss in Boots, Rapunzel, Cinderella, Snow White and Rose Red, the Three Oranges, and Beauty and the Beast. On the last day of storytelling, the real princess appears, tells her story, and ousts the deceptive slave.
Basile also wrote Italian and Spanish verse. Le muse napolitane (1635) was a series of satirical verse dialogues on Neapolitan mores.
(source: Britannica)
0 Replies
Letty
1
Reply
Fri 15 Oct, 2004 02:43 pm
Totally amazing, Walter. Almost sounds Arabian, too. I remember a fairy tale, East of the Sun and West of the Moon, but I've forgotten that one.
I just located my copy of the complete works of the Grimm Brothers. There were tales in there that I have never read. Often I think we get the feel and sense of a culture by reading about their folk tales, legends, tall tales, and fairy tales, and in that sense, we can tune in to what they think and compare it to what we think. It's a pity, sometimes, that reality is so lacking in imagination.
0 Replies
coluber2001
1
Reply
Fri 15 Oct, 2004 04:11 pm
Aren't fairy tales a way of passing on the mores of a society to their children?
There was an old woman who lived in a shoe. She had so many children that she didn't know what to do.
Gee! Whatever could the shoe represent?
I suppose if a country had a declining population, it could alter the fairy tale: There was a young woman who didn't live in a shoe. She didn't have any children, but she knew what to do.
0 Replies
Letty
1
Reply
Fri 15 Oct, 2004 04:19 pm
Hey, coluber. I love your take on that one.
But isn't the Old Woman in a Shoe a Mother Goose as opposed to a fairy tale? Well, maybe they are all part and parcel of the same more. Incidentally, Perhaps you meant That's amore. heh heh.
Gonna look for "East of the Sun..." I know that's a song, as well.
0 Replies
Letty
1
Reply
Fri 15 Oct, 2004 04:28 pm
and yes, Cav, you are a brat as is oldandknew who dropped in and left in a thrice. grrrrrrrr.
Here is the link to East of the Sun, a variation on Beauty and the Beast: