The point of it all?

furiousflee wrote:

of course not frank, I agree with you, but I believe that through a series of questions we might come to a more concrete answer about the point. I know that we all have some point of view about the point, but maybe through a global outlook on the point we can deduce a more acurate point....

I understand what you are saying, FF...but if I may extend some of my remarks, perhaps I can make a "point" of my own more clear.

Insofar as humans continue to think they can "divine" the nature of REALITY...(make guesses about whether or not there is a God; what any God that might exist is like; what the purpose or point of life is)...we cause ourself a self-inflicted wound.

Those guesses about REALITY (or the more specific topic of this thread) are the stuff of war, brutality, carnage, murder, inhumanity, and so much more.

If we could all just agree that we do not know the answers to any of those questions...we could get away from the guesses that so often lead to people honoring one of their gods (or honoring one of their notions of what the purpose of life is)...

...by stealing an airplane and flying it into a building loaded with people.

We have, in my opinion, got to get away from all this guessing...because whatever good you may perceive can come from it will be negated 50 times over by the evil that derives from assuming we can "decide" or "know" (in any form of that word) what the REALITY is right now.

Let's not assume. Let's just come to the conclusion that we do not know.

That will be much, much, much, much more valuable than any guesses the arrive here.

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True, but why do people search for those answers. We always ask why he searches for something...why do people in general have a void to fill, even when they are doing great in all aspects there still is a search for a greater fulfillment, why do we search? Why do we ask why?

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There's got to be a reason for our curiosity. The need to ask why. But, as you say, what's the point if, as frank says, we DON'T know and better yet, we don't NEED to know. Right?

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furiousflee wrote:

True, but why do people search for those answers. We always ask why he searches for something...why do people in general have a void to fill, even when they are doing great in all aspects there still is a search for a greater fulfillment, why do we search? Why do we ask why?

Hey...if a human is not asking "Why..." he/she might as well be dead.

But don't fool yourself into thinking that all "why..." questions have an answer that actually resolves, in any way, the issue at hand.

Sometimes the "why..." question is best answered with: "I do not know and the evidence available to me is not sufficient to make a reasonble guess...

...and if I were to venture a guess...it would only be: I guess everyone else to be in the same boat.

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As Frank pointed out I believe, there really can be no answer that will collectively embrace an entire society, entire nation, entire world. It is our own free will that lets each of us choose, individually what questions we seek answers to, if any at all. I doubt we all ask why to the same questions. That is an inner journey, a peace or contentment we can only find singly and completely alone. Any answers we DO find alone may become our belief. Our beliefs may be true for US, but in sharing our beliefs with others, they lose the power of collective truth by disintegrating into opinion....and there appear to as many of those as there are people in this world. So, why ask why you say? Because we can. Personally, I long ago stopped seeking answers to the nebulous. I find my own contentment within, striving to accept instead of expect.

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If it is the case that the Cosmos has no purpose, that it simply is and does what it does for the sake of being and doing, and I think that IS the case because for the Cosmos to have a point it must either have some kind of purposeful intentions or be driven by some kind of diety. I like the Hindu image of the dancing Shiva. This god is moving but going nowhere; he is dancing, i.e., moving for the sake of movement, to the rhythm of the Universe. That is, I think, the "point" of our lives, to live (as Val and Cav said) for the sake of living, to be part of Shiva's dance.

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Yeah, JL. I think that's what Alan Watts was saying in that bit of his doggerel I posted. There are always bound to be a number of people who, in their younger years, go on the quest to find their "self." You and I know that there are no answers that we can give them that would satisfy them, as it must be. Probably, the best response would be another question, in the Zen tradition, and at the same time hope that they don't settle on an answer.

I was giving a night hike at a nature center, and we were listening to crickets when an elderly man asked me what the purpose of crickets was. I just said, "to live and reproduce." I guess he wasn't satisfied because later he asked the same question, and I gave the same answer. I wasn't trying to be a smart ass or anything, but that was the best way I could respond to the question. Later on I reflected that he probably meant the question from an anthropocentric position meaning to ask what the cricket's puspose to humans was, which, of course, is the anachronistic veiw that all living things are here for people's use. That view should have died with geocentrism, but it still strongly persists.

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Yes, indeed, Coluber. It seems that we sometimes analyze ecological systems with reference only, or mainly, to human needs, as if our species were a collective ego--a rigid or obsessive point of reference. Is it possible that your interrogator wanted to know how crickets fit into some kind of eco-system? I sometimes find it helpful/appropriate to answer questions in the academic setting with questions, trying to delve into the student's question. Sometime the investigation neutralizes the question for the student, giving him the more interesting insight into why he asks the question. A quick answer to an unexamined question might not be what benefits him the most.
I must add that this only applies to some questions and situations. Sometimes a simple question deserves a direct answer.

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Then again if there is some master purpose to all of this, it could be concluded that crickets have purpose other than living and reproducing and are essential in some way to the whole. This is what I try to get people to think about, especially those who are not conservationist minided. Those species not essential to the whole will die out and disappear while we are all diminished when we hasten the demise of a species prematurely.

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we can make our own point, give life our own meaning.
The point of it all? Guess that depends on whether you think that we are here by some grand design or not. If we are just pawns in a cosmic chess game where our universe came into being by intelligent design then maybe there is a point.

But if our universe came into being or has always been because of nothing more than physics, chemistry, biology, astronomy, etc, etc., then who says there has to be a point? If we are here, and here itself just happens to be here then maybe there is no point.

To recap, maybe some higher intelligence has a point for us, or there is no higher intelligence and no point. Either way really should not affect that fact that we as a species should be able to agree on a point. We as an intelligent self-aware species should be able to craft through years of deliberation and referendum our global point for being here. A message we can pass on to future generations.

You know why we should be able to do this. Because our global intelligence and understanding of science should be able to clearly detail how insignificant each of our lifetimes are. Anyone who can not appreciate the fleeting nature of their 80-100 years on this planet is a fool. One life out of the billions on this planet right now and the trillions that have walked its face and the quadrillions that may someday walk upon mother earth is like a single grain of sand out of all the beaches on our planet. That to me should be reason enough why we as an intelligent species should be able to work together to determine what point we want to craft for ourselves.

This does I suppose take for granted that most people when considering the vastness of time and space and their insignificant significance in the world will come to the same conclusion that I have and that is our purpose for being, our point in existing is no different than what it would be for a pack of wolves, a colony of ants, a pride of lions, or an army of caterpillars. Like humans, their point is to provide for the self-preservation of the species. Every genus in the animal kingdom strives towards self-preservation and dominance.

To attempt to argue against preserving the species (although we have given ourselves tons of ammunition in that argument) is still foolish. Yes you may argue that the point of our being on this planet and the point to all human existence is not to reproduce, but arguing against preserving the species and reproducing is just foolish.

So I don't care if Yahweh, Allah, or Buddha had a point in mind for me or us, I can still know my point in existing and my reason for living and my meaning of life without a grand plan. I am the cartographer and the navigator, the captain and the passenger.

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Re: we can make our own point, give life our own meaning.

nipok wrote:

The point of it all? Guess that depends on whether you think that we are here by some grand design or not. If we are just pawns in a cosmic chess game where our universe came into being by intelligent design then maybe there is a point.

But if our universe came into being or has always been because of nothing more than physics, chemistry, biology, astronomy, etc, etc., then who says there has to be a point? If we are here, and here itself just happens to be here then maybe there is no point.

To recap, maybe some higher intelligence has a point for us, or there is no higher intelligence and no point. Either way really should not affect that fact that we as a species should be able to agree on a point. We as an intelligent self-aware species should be able to craft through years of deliberation and referendum our global point for being here. A message we can pass on to future generations.

You know why we should be able to do this. Because our global intelligence and understanding of science should be able to clearly detail how insignificant each of our lifetimes are. Anyone who can not appreciate the fleeting nature of their 80-100 years on this planet is a fool. One life out of the billions on this planet right now and the trillions that have walked its face and the quadrillions that may someday walk upon mother earth is like a single grain of sand out of all the beaches on our planet. That to me should be reason enough why we as an intelligent species should be able to work together to determine what point we want to craft for ourselves.

This does I suppose take for granted that most people when considering the vastness of time and space and their insignificant significance in the world will come to the same conclusion that I have and that is our purpose for being, our point in existing is no different than what it would be for a pack of wolves, a colony of ants, a pride of lions, or an army of caterpillars. Like humans, their point is to provide for the self-preservation of the species. Every genus in the animal kingdom strives towards self-preservation and dominance.

To attempt to argue against preserving the species (although we have given ourselves tons of ammunition in that argument) is still foolish. Yes you may argue that the point of our being on this planet and the point to all human existence is not to reproduce, but arguing against preserving the species and reproducing is just foolish.

So I don't care if Yahweh, Allah, or Buddha had a point in mind for me or us, I can still know my point in existing and my reason for living and my meaning of life without a grand plan. I am the cartographer and the navigator, the captain and the passenger.

I can only hope that someday we do craft such a point. A declaration of our goal or objective. A declaration I would hope that would be crafted in such a fine manner as to have both the insight and compassion to not only seek the preservation of our species but the betterment of our living conditions and median quality of life. And not just seeking to survive and survive better at the expense of the rest of the species we share this planet with but I would hope it would be crafted in such a fine manner as to have both the insight and compassion to understand our responsibility as the dominant intelligent species to not only provide the greatest median quality of life for our species but for every species no matter how great or how small.

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Nipok, I agree completely. While we all "belong" and are part of the Universe, which makes us intrinsic to its nature, not just some "point" of its "plan," we, as you say, craft our own "point" (shorthand for making our own meanings, values and goals).
You say:
"So I don't care if Yahweh, Allah, or Buddha had a point in mind for me or us, I can still know my point in existing and my reason for living and my meaning of life without a grand plan. I am the cartographer and the navigator, the captain and the passenger."
Except for your misplacement of the historical person, called "The Buddha," with the Abrahamic "gods", I agree with that completely.

I might add to your "I am the cartographer and the navigator, the captain and the passenger" the Buddhist perspective that you are also the sea and the boat. Laughing

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JLNobody wrote:

Nipok, I agree completely. While we all "belong" and are part of the Universe, which makes us intrinsic to its nature, not just some "point" of its "plan," we, as you say, craft our own "point" (shorthand for making our own meanings, values and goals).
You say:
"So I don't care if Yahweh, Allah, or Buddha had a point in mind for me or us, I can still know my point in existing and my reason for living and my meaning of life without a grand plan. I am the cartographer and the navigator, the captain and the passenger."
Except for your misplacement of the historical person, called "The Buddha," with the Abrahamic "gods", I agree with that completely.

I might add to your "I am the cartographer and the navigator, the captain and the passenger" the Buddhist perspective that you are also the sea and the boat.

I suppose I may be the boat as well, a magnificent dinghy at that, but the sea is much more that I am. The sea is the time, the space, and the energy that I have borrowed for my voyage.

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I think that any rational answer to the question of "the point of it all" is bound to sound very prosaic and miss the point. That's why we have great music, poetry, painting, and other arts.

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I loved the answers of all the people, do you think the search of the point could be the point of it all. Making our insatisfaction our greatest satisfaction. Maybe the quest is our reason, since we all search constantly to understand more of ourselves daily, maybe the journey of the search can be our reason for the search? ....or something like that....

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Furiousflee, wonderful point. While I do not think the search is the final goal, I agree that without it our lives become relatively more meaningless and boring. I cannot understand how people get along without literature and philosophy.
And Coluber is very right to bring up the arts. I think Nietzsche went so far as to say that the arts (aesthetic experiences) are the great(est) justification for human existence.
But, ULTIMATELY,I believe, it is self-realization that is the final goal.

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I agree JLNobody. Self-realization and the desire to overcome ones faults and be a better person. Of course we fail all of the time, that's the challenge of it all, but the striving, for me, is what it's all about.

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JLNobody wrote:

And Coluber is very right to bring up the arts. I think Nietzsche went so far as to say that the arts (aesthetic experiences) are the great(est) justification for human existence.
But, ULTIMATELY,I believe, it is self-realization that is the final goal.

Actually, I didn't mean to imply that art is a justification for human existence. I meant that the full appreciation of art or music demands an end to rationalization and an immersion in the here and now, the moment. That's why great art and music is spiritual. We can analyze music all we want or talk about "the point of life," but eventually, if we want "the point," we have to just experience it; we have to shut up and listen to the music or watch a painting. To "get" a poem, you have to transcend the mere words.

And I think the purpose of religious books is not to become addicted to them, as fundamentalists seem to do, but to transcend the words and expericence what the metaphors represent. Words are not the point, and the menu in a restaurant is not the food.

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I hear ya.

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Coluber, what I MEANT was not inconsistent with what you meant. While Nietzsche may have used the term, "justification", I meant something equivalent to "the point."
I like your OTHER use of the word, "point": that expressions like music (I would include abstract art) serve to point to the reality of immediate experience (great music does not need a program for "understanding" it or lyrics for embodying it). Yes, to 'get' a poem, you have to transcend [its medium] while at the same time using it.
Remember, what I said about Jesus (it might have been from Watts, don't recall)? JESUS POINTED THE WAY AND WE SUCK HIS FINGER FOR COMFORT. That's an example of how we misuse language--i.e, the errors of hypostatization and reification.

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The point of it all?

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