Universities World Wide

And you've done little other than add political commentary which is equeally dishonest.

I'll stand by my statements. A college degree isn't needed for the bulk of society for the society to function or for things to get done. The "need" is a social fabrication. The jobs CAN and HAVE BEEN getting done for years without the people doing the jobs having college degrees and continue to this day, to be done primarily by people who DON'T HAVE degrees in the field they work in.

I'm voting with fishin' on this.

I would like to add that a college education is not the only thing considered 'higher education'. In my experience with coworkers and family members, military experience is rank as high or higher that someone that has a degree. This is especially true for law enforcement, fire departments, EMTs, trades - the list goes on and on. It is not only the experience of training but classroom work that is provided by the military.

I don't think it's arguable that anyone with a college education or military experience or apprenticeship/trade experience is at a clear advantage.

That being said, I would like to ask Anon for further explanation of I am hopeful that you don't mean anyone that doesn't go onto a college education. Out of my parents, siblings, uncles and cousins, I am only 1 of 2 people with a Bachelors degree. Even so, my family members are well-educated and successful. A piece of paper doesn't make it so - hard work and intelligence does.

I feel that those with hiring power give heavy preference to the college educated making it increasingly necessary, but I do not feel that it is a good gauge of ability. I work with plenty of idiots that have all kinds of degrees. My dog could do a better job.

College education necessary?

Necessary for what?

George Bush says "I will leave no child behind".

Does everyone think he has followed through on that promise? If so, what do you think of the education cuts by his administration in favor of the war machine?

Fishin': Education IS a political issue. It has everything to do with education. Education was one of the FIRST VICTORIES hailed by the Bush Administration. WE are the ones who pay for the education of ALL the children and not just those who can afford it! Bush his reidrecting that money to the war machine instead of "leaving no child behind", which was nothing but a political sound byte in light of the cuts and proposed cuts by HIS administration. He in fact is stealing those educational funds for his own private interests.

My points are totally relevant and honest, not to mention to the point!! You love the Military, so you think we should funnel Billions of dollars that way. The Military in my mind is a boondoggle for the military beneficiaries, and little else, and should be unacceptable to an intelligent society.

Short your children and your grandchildren on education if you wish, and they will pay the price, This will NOT be the case in mine! This will not be MY mistake. I have GUARANTEED the education of my grandchildren, and the poor little suckers who don't have it will be the ones who pay!!

Anon

Nevermind.

<sigh>
I'm never having kids.

Thanks for sharing, Anon.

New Haven has a point -- how do we define "necessary"? Does it help you get a job? Probably. Do you absolutely need a degree to get a job? Not really.

Sozobe:

Education is not only for the job, it is for the success as a human being! A college education expands the human being.

Forty Billion Dollars paid to Pakistan to wage war on Afghanistan. Twenty-Eight Billion Dollars paid to Turkey for our upcoming attack on Iraq. Those bribes paid to foreign governments to look the other way while wage war would be better spent paying off educational loans, or not incurring them in the first place!!!

Anon

Anon - and spent paying for education system improvements.

Anon, my point was that the definition of "necessary" is important for answering this question.

Can ya tone down the rhetoric just a tad?

littlek:

Absolutely! The administration thinks that requiring a few tests is going to make a difference. Then they pass the cost on to the States, who can ill afford it! Then it will not be the administrations fault, it will be the States.

The truth is, they did nothing! They required a few tests, passed an education bill, and are now cutting it up for the war machine rather than spend it on education. They did the same thing with Social Security ... They took a huge surplus, and redirected it to their desires (read that the military beneficiaries), and now Social Security is in deeper **** than ever!

What Bush SHOULD have said is that he would leave no WAR SUPPLIER behind!!

Anon

Sozobe:

Rhetoric? Rhetoric indeed! What is it when I hear people dismissing the necessity of higher education.

Well, I guess I should just be happy with the fact that I have taken care of my own, and to hell with the rest. That seems to be the American Way now.

Anon

something i would like to add to this "conversation", much of what US colleges/universities identify as "education" is not education at all but rather it is "technical training". from the B.S.=M.S.=PHD we have developed highly trained technologists with little or no "education".

Would you expand on that for me. I'm not totally tracking with you. I understand your point about specialization, but that is the emphasis of the graduate degrees. The undergraduate work should contain the "education" part.

Anon

In undergraduate work you can get by with actually learning very little outside your major. There are scads of folks with B.S. degrees out there who have difficulty writing three correct sentences in a row, and folks with B.A.s who can't balanc their checkbook.

Some of this is necessary. A graduate student, at least in the sciences, is very pressed to have a narrow focus coming into a program -- and since most come in directly from their undergraduate work rather than from a professional environment, this is focus begins in their undergraduate work, sometimes as early as their freshman year. Part of the fault for this probably lies with grade inflation (click here to look at some average grades at the University of Washington). You have to work very hard in a lot of general education courses to earn a bad grade. Since most undergraduates are more concerned with their grades (at least outside of their major) than what they actually learn, it is quite possible to earn an undergraduate degree, and even earn various honors, with a very weak education in the broad sense of the word.

I work in a University, I'm working toward a B.S. and I already have a B.A., and I can tell you that "higher education," in practice, does not necessarily mean a broad-based education.

my point was that when i was in grad school i also worked as a tutor in the humanities dept for both undergrad and grad students who where essentially illiterate in those areas traditionally defined as needed to be an "educated" person. My ex when pursuing her PHD which required a modicum of philosopy was totally lost at sea with elementary concepts of philosophy. Her knowledge of classic literature was at the 10th grade level and her idea of "art" was that stuff they hang in museums she had heard about. She did acquire her PHD from one of the nations top rated Universities in her field but i would not refer to her as "educated", just very highly trained.

(much more succinctly put)

PatioDog:

So, your take on the subject is that the B.A or B.S. is a nice little gismo to have , but doesn't really mean anything?

I think the entire educational experience is one that builds you as a person. It trains you to think beyond the surface, dig into meaning rather than take things at face, or given value.

How often is common sense little more than superstition, misinterpretration, and knowledge which is unsubstantiated.

When you're taught to dig into meaning and not be lead because someone tells you, it is the realization of freedom. Two years in the army did teach me this. It taught me what evil is. It taught me not to allow myself to be led by those whose know less than I do. It taught me what the evil will do to control the ignorant. My insistance on education is my insistance to guard against ignorance.

George Bush aimed at, and was elected by those at the eighth grade level of education. I'm sorry, I just don't care much for a nation run by people who have electorate at an eighth grade education level. I don't think it lends itself to intelligent, adult decisions. That is why we are in deep poop now!

You either learn how to cut yourself out of the herd, or you become part of the herd. The herd is usually slaughtered at will for food and clothing.

Anon

DYS:

As with education at any level, you will get out of it, what you put in it! Maybe more should be expected at the undergraduate level then. Maybe they should expand an undergrad degree to six years and make sure these things are learned, or not advance them.

Anon