4 Noble Truths

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1. Life is suffering:
-Birth trauma
-Illness
-Old age
-Fear of approaching death
-Separation from what one loves
-Stuck with what one hates

2. The cause of suffering is desire
3. The cure for suffering is to remove desire
4. To remove desire, follow the Eightfold path

I've probably done too much reading & researching into various religions and philosophies. Too much time in libraries and wandering around. Some models were quite attractive in various ways. However, when I read the above 4 Noble Truths of Buddhism, something just CLICKED. It seemed to match what I have witnessed in reality closer, more efficiently, simply, and sensibly than any other explanation or model I've encountered. By far. No comparison.

I offer no scientific proof to the above. I am simply saying it seems to match the reality that I experience, just as the statement "the sun rises each morning" matches my experience. In that way, I almost consider it on par with a science.

Evidence: When I look the reality that I appear to exist in, and compare it to these "truths," the statements appear to be self-evident when reality and life are viewed objectively. It is here right in front of my face. No invisible stuff to believe in. Suffering, for example, is very much here, with every living being I've encountered.

That is, if I guess that the sun will rise tomorrow, I also guess with equal certainty that especially the first 3 Noble Truths truly match my reality, just as the sun rises.

I think the first 3 are almost on par with Newtons Laws of Physics, for example. Not really, but getting there...

The 4th Noble Truth? I am still debating that one.

I have to point out that I am not saying "Buddhism is The One & Only Way." One thing that struck me off guard was seeing pictures of Jesus in Hindu and Buddhist temples. "What the heck?" I thought. "This cannot be. Doesn't compute." One thing I deeply appreciate about many sects of the east is they have no problem with including and incorporating other ideas into their system. It doesn't have to be "either-or,"--it can be "both." It almost appears that a prophet needs to come along and bring all the great religions and schools of philosophy together, pointing humanity toward a positive real path. Then again, that person would probably be locked up or simply laughed at and ignored as people scramble to protect their nation, backyard barbeques, SUVs, and big screen TVs.

note: the above of course is but one of several interpretations of The 4 Noble Truths

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I'm not entirely convinced.

Quote:

1. Life is suffering:
-Birth trauma
-Illness
-Old age
-Fear of approaching death
-Separation from what one loves
-Stuck with what one hates

There is certainly much more to my life then just suffering. all in all, I'm actually enjoying it.

Quote:

2. The cause of suffering is desire

physical pain is not caused by desire.

Quote:

3. The cure for suffering is to remove desire

Apathy will also remove joy and pleasure, which in my case outweighs the suffering.

Quote:

I think the first 3 are almost on par with Newtons Laws of Physics, for example. Not really, but getting there...

I disagree. I have a hard time comparing theories which makes accurate predictions about measurable entities such as mass, time and distance with "theories" which only makes subjective statements about such subjective things as suffering.

just my two cents - Einherjar

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Einherjar wrote:

physical pain is not caused by desire.

Einherjar,

A Buddhist view would be: physical pain is ultimately caused by the being's desire to exist.

Quote:

I think the first 3 are almost on par with Newtons Laws of Physics, for example. Not really, but getting there...

Einherjar wrote:

I disagree. I have a hard time comparing theories which makes accurate predictions about measurable entities such as mass, time and distance with "theories" which only makes subjective statements about such subjective things as suffering.

Actually, I agree with you on that. I probably shouldn't have used that comparison. I was trying to paint a flavor rather than make a strict comparison, but could have used a better method.

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I thought I might post a translation of the Deer Park Sermon from the Pali. There are many translations of the Four Noble Truths and Eight Fold Path, and they have been frequently restated in later texts. It seemed to me that it might be useful to get for you the "purest" version I have available. Unfortunately, since our lower floor was flooded our library collections have become scattered and disordered. I never did locate the books I was looking for. The expedition should only have taken 15 minutes, at most, but after a few hours I gave it up. I ended up rereading a chapter here, and a chapter there. I really need to set aside some time and reread some of that material that lies almost forgotten in our past.

Here is a substitute for the intended material. It is from a textbook on Buddhist values used in grad school. The author is Peter Pardue, and he is a very reliable scholar within the Oriental Religion and Philosophy discipline. If memory serves, Prof. Pardue is a student of comparative religion and is not himself a Buddhist. Dr, Purdue (Columbia, Harvard, and Indiana Univ.) here is talking about the Four Noble Truths as translated from the very earliest Pali texts.

"The shortest form, among many in which they appear is simply: "This is Sorrow; this is the Cause of Sorrow; this is the Cessation of Sorrow; this is the Way leading to the Cessation of Sorrow." In fuller exposition:

(1) All creaturely existence is marked by suffering, sorrow, pain (dkkha), an agonized bondage to the meaningless cycle of birth and death amid a transitory flux which is momentary, impermanent (anicca) and without essential being (anatta: literally "no-soul").

(2) The principal cause of this condition is profound ignorance (avijja) of the illusory nature of the phenomenal world which engenders uncontrollable desires or craving (tanha) for transient entities - the mistaken attribution of ultimate worth to finite forms which come into being only to decay and dissolve. Particularly pernicious is the notion of the eternality of soul; it is a phenomenal construct - a combination of rudimentary mental, psychophysical, and sensory forms. The desire for continued physical existence beyond its finite "composite" conditions is not only the source of delusion and paralyzing fear, but has an even more dreadful consequence: as the individual "soul" begins to dissolve in death, the subtle craving for existence binds the phenomenal elements together once again and, in an inexorable causal sequence, chains it to rebirth and suffering.

(3) The elimination of ignorance about the illusory nature of phenomenal things and the extirpation of egregious craving for them will break the causal sequences and sp precipitate final salvation.

(4) For this purpose the appropriate yoga is the Eight-Fold Path, an integral combination of ethical and meditational disciplines which jointly purify the motivations and the mind. This leads in turn to the attainment of a final state of spiritual perfection marked by threshold mystical experiences culminating in final enlightenment and release, that is, nibbana/nirvana (Pali/Sanskrit)."

I really enjoyed rediscovering this passage, and mostly agree with it. My primary hesitation is that some might confuse the Hindu notions about "self" and the transmigration of souls on which Buddhism was built, with the more generally excepted Buddhist doctrines. Do not overlook the anatta/no-soul reference at the end of (1) above. I believe that Dr. Pardue has gone just a bit too far in his comments in (2) about release from the cycle of birth and death, though this is a notion common within the Pure Land sects. To me it seems to run clearly counter to the fundamental doctrines of Buddhism. I've bumped Dr. Pardue's Buddhism: A historical introduction to Buddhist values and the social and political forms they have assumed in Asia. up on my list of books to reread, I had almost forgotten him and he really does have many insights worth hearing.

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extra medium wrote:

Einherjar wrote:
physical pain is not caused by desire.

Einherjar,

A Buddhist view would be: physical pain is ultimately caused by the being's desire to exist.

Quote:
I think the first 3 are almost on par with Newtons Laws of Physics, for example. Not really, but getting there...

Einherjar wrote:
I disagree. I have a hard time comparing theories which makes accurate predictions about measurable entities such as mass, time and distance with "theories" which only makes subjective statements about such subjective things as suffering.

Actually, I agree with you on that. I probably shouldn't have used that comparison. I was trying to paint a flavor rather than make a strict comparison, but could have used a better method.

Forgive me if I come off as flippant, but this story/parable of mine has some merit, I think. So, let's assume that "a Buddhist (sic) view would be that physical pain is ultimately caused by the being's desire to exist."

I ate a ton of broccoli last night. This morning it was clear that the entity wanted to exist, and was intent on causing me physical pain. I tell you, with the gas trauma, that broccoli just wanted to exist, and was protesting even. I let out a huge fart that smelled of broccoli, like the best broccoli you ever inhaled. I've been comfortable ever since. I feel that our essences were exhanged in a positive manner. Mmmm....broccoli...I am quite certain it wanted to survive beyond it's mortal coil, and knew just how to accomplish that goal.

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Now see, thats exactly what I'm talkin about.

How can we have a discussion on paths to nirvana around here? We seem to be getting somewhere, then someone comes around and interrupts the whole thing with fart jokes! Very Happy

Did Buddha have to contend with such, such...insanity? Laughing

Its enough to drive the seeker to the temples for life. Or at least to a cave. Cool

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In his excellent book, Illusions, The adventures of a Reluctant Messiah, Richard Bach (the author of Jonathan Livingston Seagull) discussed a book which his protagonist thought might be a "magic book"...because he had been advised to open to anywhere...and "whatever you need most is there."

But when asked if it was a "magic book" he says: "No, you can do it with any book."

Hold the problem in your mind...and open any book handy and see what it tells you.

I think he was trying to say that if you have problems...whatever you come across...if given enough consideration...can help solve that problem.

The 4 Noble Truths...and the Eightfold path...are "something you can come across."

Good for them...and it is wonderful that they have helped individuals get their lives in order...just as it is wonderful that Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Atheism...and all such, have done the same thing.

Just beware of the belief parts...because that is where it can get sticky.

Beware of Christianity telling you its version of REALITY...like the existence of an eternal soul, for instance.

There seems to be no way Christians can KNOW there is a soul...and there is just about NO evidence that there is one. They are just guesses...part of the religion's belief system...and probably should be discarded in order to increase the value of the rest of the philosophy.

Beware of Buddhists telling you their version of REALITY...like "the phenomenal world is an illusion" and "there is no soul." There seems to be no way Buddhists can KNOW there are no souls and no way Buddhists can KNOW the phenomenal world is an illusion...and there is just about NO evidence any of that is so. They are just guesses...part of Buddhism's belief system...and probably should be discarded in order to increase the value of the rest of the philosophy.

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extra medium wrote:

Now see, thats exactly what I'm talkin about.

How can we have a discussion on paths to nirvana around here? We seem to be getting somewhere, then someone comes around and interrupts the whole thing with fart jokes!

Did Buddha have to contend with such, such...insanity?

Its enough to drive the seeker to the temples for life. Or at least to a cave.

The answer to all your questions is yes.

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If Siddhartha Gautama had been born after the advent of pain killers, anti-depressants, antibiotics and geriatric medicine, he might have realized that life need not be suffering.

Yes, you can avoid some suffering by convincing yourself that you don't want anything you don't have, but if everyone did that, there would be no incentive to devote your life to finding a cure for cancer or inventing anesthesia, artificial knees, and machines to do the mind-numbing and backbreaking work. I for one appreciate all the myriad inventions that make life today a pleasure instead of an ordeal. And without relentless achievers to drive progress, the race would probably stagnate.

Suppose that we could all achieve spiritual perfection. Would our cultures revert to the way life was 100,000 years ago? What would be the point of an existence where nothing was accomplished but the destruction of countless trees and the manual transfer of endless buckets of H2O? Almost as grim a prospect as facing an eternity of gospel music Evil or Very Mad

I agree that following the eight-fold path (right understanding, right thoughts, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right endeavor, right mindfulness, and right concentration) would probably be beneficial to most people (depending on how "right" is defined) but with the objective of leading a fulfilling life rather than extinguishing all desire.

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Asherman, if life is suffering, why do you suppose that souls (or whatever you want to call them) would crave it? Who set up the system, created the original entities with their delusions and cravings, and consigned them to endless cycles of rebirth and suffering? The whole thing makes no sense.

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And the point to a life where you desire nothing would be....?

No pain, no gain.

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Terry, your comment that
"If Siddhartha Gautama had been born after the advent of pain killers, anti-depressants, antibiotics and geriatric medicine, he might have realized that life need not be suffering.

Yes, you can avoid some suffering by convincing yourself that you don't want anything you don't have, but if everyone did that, there would be no incentive to devote your life to finding a cure for cancer or inventing anesthesia, artificial knees, and machines to do the mind-numbing and backbreaking work. I for one appreciate all the myriad inventions that make life today a pleasure instead of an ordeal. And without relentless achievers to drive progress, the race would probably stagnate."

suffers from a fundamental misunderstanding. Suffering did not refer to physical pain. The term, dukkha, denotes an existential malaise, a deep sorrow or disattisfaction with our ego-centered lives, our need for power, fame, adoration, recognition, absolute security, immortality, etc. etc. But it is more than that. It is what we can never have, "enough." I don't want to stress these desires, for the object of buddhism as I understand it is not to end "desire" as such. That comes to us for spontaneous and irrestible physiological reasons. When we need nutrition we feel the desire of hunger and eat; after a long day sleepiness overcomes us and we desire sleep and go to bed; after a long night's sleep we desire to get up and do so. No problems there IF we do not ATTACH to those desires. We do not base our happiness on the next meal or the next sleep. We gratiffy our needs as they emerge and move on. Attaching to objects of desire strengthens our sense of separateness (our sense of the poor little ego) from the world and our neurotic need to dominate and exploit it. But no matter how successful we are at that effort, the ego it feeds leads to the alienation we sometimes call quiet desperation. It is the freedom from this orientation, I think, that is the goal of Buddhist psychology, not the eradication of physical pain by the ending of desire. If it has anything to do with physical pain, it is the anxiety people (egos) can have over a sense of their vulnerability to pain. I suspect that the problem here is a very bad translation from the buddhist literature.

edited

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mark

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JLN, as I understand it, the impetus for Siddhartha's journey of enlightenment was his discovery that people physically suffer, starve, get sick, age and die. If he had continued to lead his sheltered life, he might never have known of any existential malaise.

Most of us learn to live quite comfortably with our egos. Perhaps you think that my life is ego-centered since I enjoy material things and intellectual stimulation, but I have no desire for fame, fortune, immortality, exploitation or anything like that. Yes, I am attached to my family, friends, books (to the regret of my husband who thinks I have far more than I need) and favorite possessions. Why is that bad? What on earth is wrong with living like a real human being, trying to avoid discomfort, anticipating pleasures and striving to achieve whatever seems important to us?

I agree that focusing your life on ego-gratification would be a waste, but going to the other extreme makes no sense either.

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Terry, that was a wonderful rejoinder. It forces me to provide a deeper exposition of the point of Buddhism. I wish I could. Let me, nevertheless, play around with some thoughts. First of all, we must remember that the LEGEND of the Buddha's journey toward enlightment (liberation from dukkha) is legend and probably written by relatively unenlightened people. But that's a cheap shot, I know. I feel (and I'm no more informed than the writers of the legend) that Siddartha's relevations regarding human suffering, had to do with the horror of his realization of his own ulitmate physical outcome, not with the actual physical pain suffered by people (not that he wasn't sympathetic). It is the human condition that we all know to be so that captured his mind and propelled him on his quest. If he continued to lead his sheltered life I think he would have eventually come to the same horror--his own aging and sickness, the death of his parents and friends, etc. His eventual enlightenment had nothing to do with freedom from physical pain; it had to do with the realization of the spiritual significance of the situation. Who is it that suffers? He realized that while there is pain, there is no victim of pain. This realization of the illusion of the ego-self permits us to suffer and die wilthout seeing that as an absolute (and insoluable) problem. It is not pain that is bad (it's neither good nor bad, except from the perspective of the ego): it just is. It's what we add, at the level of meaning, to the pain that is "bad." I was talking with a Japanese zen master in 1960 when he suddenly grimmaced and doubled over with pain (gall stones, I think). I jokingly (but sarcastically, unconsciously), challenged him to square his enlightenment with his grimmace. He said, "You know how I transcend pain?" I asked "How?" He bent over holding his stomach and moaned. We both laughed. He did not add anxiety to his pain. In other words, his pain did not cause suffering, sorrow, or dukkha.
I too love my attachments. I love the way our (Western) culture (like other culture areas) has managed to turn chaos into order, to make meaning in literature, art, philosophy, in all kinds of glorious fictions. I wouldn't want to live even without the illusory meanings you and I make in everyday life, like right now. They permit us to share our lives and coordinate our actions. But this web of meaning is not meant to catch you and me spiritually. I also love to be able to see its fictional nature, and just as I do not reject the pleasures of reading great literature--and identifying with its characters--because they are fictitious (i.e, illusory), I do not reject the pleasures of my everyday illusions. But thank God, I know they are illusions. I'm ulitmately like an amphibian, living simultaneously in two worlds, one illusory but human and relativistic, the other cosmic and absolute (if I can be so bold: I believe I will receive much criticism for this last arrogance. But remember that I say that it applies to everyone, not to just me, or just Buddhists).

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JLNobody wrote:

... But thank God, I know they are illusions. I'm ulitmately like an amphibian, living simultaneously in two worlds, one illusory but human and relativistic, the other cosmic and absolute (if I can be so bold: I believe I will receive much criticism for this last arrogance. But remember that I say that it applies to everyone, not to just me, or just Buddhists).

JLN,

Nice. No criticism for your "arrogance" from me, I find you one of the more self-deprecating posters on here.

However, the "thank God" comment has thrown me into an illusory tailspin. Very Happy

Are you saying you believe in a God, or was that a figure of speech? By the way, (and this could be a whole new thread), I've heard some self-proclaimed "Buddhists" say they "felt blessed by God" and things like that...interesting. I must admit though, most of these were of the "Buddhist/Catholic" strain of people that you sometimes see coming out of Japan, etc. They seem to have no big problem with being Buddhist & Catholic at the same time!

But I digress: so are you saying you believe in God? Not to put you on the spot or anything and of course you don't have to answer... Twisted Evil

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tcis. Thanks for you supportive comments. No, I am an atheist, from the perspective of a theist. The notion of a personal God (a human writ VERY large) makes no sense to me. Ha! I should talk about making sense as a criterion of truth. Oh well. My "Thank God" was a mere linguistic habit. Although I have no objection to referring to Ultimate Reality as some kind of God-head, or God, but only as a metaphor. Not good to do that, however, since it causes confusion in others.
In my previous post to Terry, I may have given the impression that I'm contending that if one BELIEVES that all our dualistic experiences are illusory the pains of life will become non-problematical. That's wrong. One must REALIZE in one's bones the illusory nature of EGO, of the subject-object split which defines us as some kind of exposed nerve surrounded and constrained by an opposing world "out there." It is the MYSTICAL realization of our essential unity with everything that liberates us from existential sorrow (dukkha).
JL

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I like Terry's philosophy of life. Enjoy it!

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Re: 4 Noble Truths
I expect you don't see my question as offensive. It's just a matter of personal curiosity.
If the solution is to remove all desires, why not kill yourself?

extra medium wrote:

1. Life is suffering:
-Birth trauma
-Illness
-Old age
-Fear of approaching death
-Separation from what one loves
-Stuck with what one hates

2. The cause of suffering is desire
3. The cure for suffering is to remove desire
4. To remove desire, follow the Eightfold path

I've probably done too much reading & researching into various religions and philosophies. Too much time in libraries and wandering around. Some models were quite attractive in various ways. However, when I read the above 4 Noble Truths of Buddhism, something just CLICKED. It seemed to match what I have witnessed in reality closer, more efficiently, simply, and sensibly than any other explanation or model I've encountered. By far. No comparison.

I offer no scientific proof to the above. I am simply saying it seems to match the reality that I experience, just as the statement "the sun rises each morning" matches my experience. In that way, I almost consider it on par with a science.

Evidence: When I look the reality that I appear to exist in, and compare it to these "truths," the statements appear to be self-evident when reality and life are viewed objectively. It is here right in front of my face. No invisible stuff to believe in. Suffering, for example, is very much here, with every living being I've encountered.

That is, if I guess that the sun will rise tomorrow, I also guess with equal certainty that especially the first 3 Noble Truths truly match my reality, just as the sun rises.

I think the first 3 are almost on par with Newtons Laws of Physics, for example. Not really, but getting there...

The 4th Noble Truth? I am still debating that one.

I have to point out that I am not saying "Buddhism is The One & Only Way." One thing that struck me off guard was seeing pictures of Jesus in Hindu and Buddhist temples. "What the heck?" I thought. "This cannot be. Doesn't compute." One thing I deeply appreciate about many sects of the east is they have no problem with including and incorporating other ideas into their system. It doesn't have to be "either-or,"--it can be "both." It almost appears that a prophet needs to come along and bring all the great religions and schools of philosophy together, pointing humanity toward a positive real path. Then again, that person would probably be locked up or simply laughed at and ignored as people scramble to protect their nation, backyard barbeques, SUVs, and big screen TVs.

note: the above of course is but one of several interpretations of The 4 Noble Truths

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Yeah, why not . . .

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4 Noble Truths

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