This whole BIG thing about voter suppression.

It is interesting that you are from China.

Do you know that from 1920 to 1965, Almost very Chinese immigrant to the US was illegal. And a whole bunch of Chinese people came illegally anyway. Yes, we had a law called the "Asian Exclusion Act". It was passed because a bunch of Americans felt that Chinese men were barbaric and lazy and that Chinese women were all prostitutes.

So if you are asking what "illegals" have done for the country, just talk to a Chinese American who has been here for more than a couple of decades.

Our history is filled, and our nation has long depended on people who immigrated here illegally... from Irish and Italians and certainly Asians. They still came, worked hard, raised families, built business and grew the country... the same as those of us whose families immigrated in the 1600s.

Maddie, if one of those illegals you fully supported turns out to be the perpetrator of the San Bernardo shooter, what are you going to say to the families of the victims? You'll say that you are sorry and that not everyone is like this guy Rizwan Farook and we should just forgive and continue taking refugees even if there could be hidden terrorist undetected?

The 14th amendment makes it very easy to have a sham marriage and then have a baby here which lead to eventual legalization and citizenship. Do you know that Japan hardly naturalize anyone? America has some of the most loose immigration laws in the world. Europe has now waken up finally and some European nations have started amending their birthright citizenship to require at least one parent to be a citizen:

http://blog.constitutioncenter.org/2015/08/what-do-other-countries-constitutions-say-about-birthright-citizenship/

Plugging this hole will discourage many illegals from coming here to give birth.

I know quite a few from Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, and some smaller towns. While a few had liberal ideas, those liberals are often recent immigrants whereas those who have been here for generations are more "keep it to themselves" and aren't really vocal about politics.

And FYI, that law was proposed in late 1800's and signed into law in 1902, a very long time ago during which the exploitation of China is not just by the US, but by many other nations due to the corruption and weakness of the Qing Dynasty, which ended in 1912. For thousands of years prostitution is a legitimate professional in China and thus, I am not surprised they'd carry the same profession here even in today's time. Those morally deprived people come here, get free medical benefits, free education for their kids, food stamps and what they do? Either have a "massage parlor" or a "travel agency". I am not going to explain to you what a massage parlor does -- you should know. How about "travel agency"? They got "experts" analyzing every possible loopholes in the US constitution so they could "help" their fellow Chinese come here and leech on social benefits, from hiding your pregnancy to creating fake documents.

Like I said, I don't cling to history, but I look forward and I do not want morally deprived people here, even if it means my own ethnicity.

I am an American. This is my country. I get to decide (through elections) what the immigration policy should be. That is why I am voting for Hillary next month, and that I voted for Obama twice, and that I vote for pro-Amnesty congressmen. Of course, we give you a vote too, that you can choose to use as you want.

But for you to do all this whining about the democratic choice of the majority of Americans is silly.

Now let's talk about the American experience. We are a nation of immigrants (unlike Japan or Europe). Immigrants, legal and illegal, built our roads, canals and railroads. Immigrants, legal and illegal have changed our cities, introduced diversity of foods and music.

Immigration has greatly benefited us a nation, whether it has been legal as the Italians and Irish who came through Ellis Island or illegal, as the Chinese and some Jews who weren't allowed to come through Ellis Island. By the way, my Jewish Great Grandparents spent some time in Canada before making their way to New England. They ended up working hard... they ran a bakery that stayed in my family for the next generation.

We don't know for sure... but there is a very good chance that my own great-grandparents came illegally. If they had tried to come legally, they likely would have been excluded (at great cost to them).

Do you think that matters to me?

Immigrants, legal and illegal, are the reason that America is now so diverse, cultured, vibrant and economically successful. I don't want to live in Japan. I want to live in America.

So even if the America will no longer be the same America you know when you first came, you'll still support your idealism? Or maybe you think "America" isn't a country but an idea that is an ever evolving organism, changing constantly to become the next ideal state?

Also, have I ever said we should deport every illegal immigrants? I only support the repeal of the 14th amendment and change it into something like one of your parents must be a citizen for your child to be a citizen at birth. Otherwise, you'll have to earn it through other legal means. So, that'll discourage many dishonest people to come here because they won't be able to be a leech of the society. On the other hand, talented and hard working people will still have a chance because someone will vouch for them, just like my good friend who's Visa expired but his superiors at NASA personally fought for converting his Visa due to his great contribution.

Bottom line: if you are a leech and just want to take, take and take, then you are out, but if you contribute, and do honest work, you are in; it's as simple as that.

You are absolutely correct. Electing Donald Trump would be the same as electing Hilter, Stalin, and the other dictators you listed. Thank goodness we are not going to make that same mistake. It looks like we are going to elect the right choice by electing Hillary Clinton. .

Yes, America is idealism. Yes, America is an ever evolving organism.

Long before we gained our independence we were forming our society as "a city on a hill". We formed a democracy, fought to end slavery, struggled to extend democracy to women, gave our best to end fascism in Europe... America has always been about idealism and about evolving toward our core values of freedom and equality.

You really don't seem to understand America very well.

The 14th Amendment is an important part of our Constitution. It is here to stay. It represents who Americans are as a people. Many if not most Americans (including me) would oppose any such change. To change the Constitution is very difficult, the founders of our nation made it that way. You aren't going to change it.

Angel is making a valid point. Democracy comes with a risk. Democracy is government by the people, and sometimes people do bad things If there is enough popular support and political leverage for something barbaric, it will become law.

The alternative is having a power structure; a king, an dictator or a party elite to keep the people from doing bad things. Some countries (including China) do exactly that. I prefer to live in America with the American system of democracy (although I do complain about it at times).

Angel made the decision to live in the American Democracy. He doesn't have to live here. If he does, he has to live with these risks just like the rest of us.

Agreed. That is the very reason that we as a country need to reject Donald Trump. That is why we as a country need to elect Hillary Clinton as our next president. Also, that is why we as a country need to make sure that the democrats regain control of congress.

I think we are making different points Real Music. But I am going to disagree with your use of the word "need". We don't "need" to do anything. If a majority of Americans support Donald Trump, then Donald Trump should be president.

I sure hope that isn't the case. But our system of democracy gives us, as Americans, the ability to elect Donald Trump president.

If all you are saying is that it would be a very bad thing if Donald Trump is elected, then I would agree with you. But that, of course, is a subjective opinion not a Constitutional fact. Americans have every ability and right to elect Donald Trump if we so choose.

Point taken. I can replace the word "need" with the words "hope and pray".

I hope and pray that we as a country elect Hillary Clinton to be our next president.
I hope and pray that Democrats regain control of congress.

So you agree that "Yes, America is idealism. Yes, America is an ever evolving organism." Yet you think it's wrong to change something that was defined hundreds of years ago, when immigration was much harder (must be done by boats that takes months and potentially dangerous). Transportation has evolved nowadays that we can get from one place to another in less than a day and hence more people abuse another country's kindness and take that kindness for granted.



Are you kidding me? Now you are just making things up. From what you said, you don't seem to be a young college boy and I am surprised you'd say this kind of uneducated things. I may not know the details of American history, but I have taken my fair share of history lessons. America DID NOT get too involved in WWII until Pearl Harbor. Read this here:

http://www.history.co.uk/study-topics/history-of-ww2/us-entry-and-alliance

"In September 1939, the ideological affinity between the USA and Britain was unquestionable, yet large swathes of the US public, media and politicians were deeply isolationist. With hindsight, many people resented America’s involvement in the First World War. The desire to ‘avoid foreign entanglements’ and focus on domestic issues was widespread."

Ask your grandparents what did America do to save all the Jews being brutally murdered. Hitler's force was virtually unstoppable in Europe, until they hit Russia. The Russians are an entirely different people who would rather burn their own land and crops than to let a foreign invader take them. Hitler's "never take a step back" policy together with his unfamiliarity with the Russian climate (winter) and culture resulted in his total loss against Stalin. Stalin, while is undoubtedly a bad person and a mass murder, vastly improved Russia's military power through rapid industrialization. Hitler was fighting a losing battle on the Russian side, and another front against Winston Churchill that spread himself too thin. He also lost because his inability to listen to those around him. History may say that the assassination attempt on him was a loss, but in fact it was not a total loss. Hitler executed all his top generals after the assassination attempt. Virtually no one is left to fight his war.

So no, America didn't give it's best to end fascism. America didn't even want to be in the war in the first place. Today, America has a knack to meddle with other people's business and what has America do that really made it better for any country? Muslim nations mostly hate America, why? We killed their people, bombed their cities -- all for what? To bring freedom to their country? Having an ideal for your own nation is one thing, forcing it upon other nations, then you got yourself a lot of haters.



You just said America's history is of full of racism and segregation and now it's all freedom and equality? I wouldn't say America, but liberals do have their way of going to the extreme every time. There's no true equality. Marx wanted that, and look what that brought the world. People are born of different skill sets and raised in different ways. How can there ever be true equality? You want Utopia. IT doesn't exist.

The fourteenth amendment was not ratified hundreds of years ago, it was ratified in 1868. The due process clause was crucial to protecting the rights of recently freed slaves. Since that time, if has been used again and again by the Federal bench and the Supreme Court to protect the civil rights of citizens. One doesn't throw out useful things just because they're old.

While it is true that the United States did not immediately join France and Britain in the Second World War--what would have been the point? So that they could sit on the German border and do nothing while Poland bled and died, as the French and British did? So that they could have involved in the debacle at Dunkirk? Roosevelt could not join the war by fiat--you know, that annoying little thing called democracy? Nevertheless, he used his executive powers to gradually extend the range of United States Navy patrols to Iceland, which greatly relieved the pressure on the Royal Navy and Royal Canadian Navy. The navy here called it "waging neutrality." The United States Coast Guard sent PBY Catalina reconnaissance aircraft to Britain, along with their own aircrew and U.S. Navy aircrew--before they joined the war against Germany. From Wikipedia:



The United States provided billions and billions of dollars of aid to Britain, before they entered the war. Read about Lend Lease sometime. More than 180,000 Americans were killed in the European theater of operations, including more than 30,000 air crew who were killed in the skies over Germany. All of that while fighting a separate major war over thousands of miles in the Pacific. I'm not one of those who claim the United States "saved" Europe, but they certainly made a major contribution to the victory.

But it's so easy to be haughty and condemnatory when one is ignorant of facts, isn't it.

There are two separate points I should make about the Fourteen Amendment.

1. If you have become a citizen recently, I hope that you were taught the process of ratifying a constitutional amendment. It is possible (we have done it 17 times after the Bill of Rights) but it is made to be very difficult.

Many Americans, myself included, would be strongly opposed to any attempt to weaken the Fourteenth Amendment. If there were a serious attempt, I would be voting, calling my State Senators, writing newspapers, contributing to political organizations and marching on the street to stop it.

Fortunately there aren't enough Americans who agree with you to even make a serious attempt.

2. The Fourteenth Amendment has been great for us. It means that everyone born here has equal rights; they can vote, they can go to school, they can work, they can serve in the military, they can start businesses and contribute to our economy. Who your parents are doesn't matter, if you were born here, you are an American. Whether your parents are Chinese, or Mexican, or Somali it doesn't matter. Everyone is equal under the law.

Stop and think about how important this fact is.

Country's that don't have birthright citizenship, France for example, have problems that the US doesn't have. There are people in France who were born in France of parents who were born in France, who have lived their whole life in France and speak French who aren't totally French... they are a permanent underclass created by laws that say that from birth they have inferior rights.

I am glad that America accepts everyone who was born here. That is who we are as a country.

There will never be enough support to topple such a core American value.

I am not here to argue whether there'll be enough people to change this. I am trying to figure out why so many people think it's wrong to change it. You have presented the upside of this law, but you have yet to justify the downside.

What about all those people who only want to enjoy the benefit but don't want to contribute? They certainly have equal rights; they can vote, they can go to school, they can work, but they choose not to work and the if they get drafted to serve in the military they move to Canada. And certainly they'll vote for increased benefits because it SERVES their interest to not work or contribute.

A good example is ACA. I am sure a lot of you liberals support it. Why not, because it serves your interest, but few has taken a second to think about ALL the other hard working families who's healthcare costs increased 3-5 folds. What used to cost me $120 for a family of 4 with 100% coverage will cost $334 with a $5000 deductible and only covers 90%. Thanks to the "great" ACA. I have a co worker, a mother of 3, who's working long hours here just to get by and yet must bear the burden of buying healthcare for those illegals who probably NEVER contributed a dime to her well being. How do you justify robbing her of her hard earned cash just to feed your idealistic "America?" Obama promised that costs will be LOWER, but it ain't true. It got higher, MUCH HIGHER and people who used to support it now won't anymore. People tried to repeal it but all failed because our liberal supreme court won't do anything to piss off our liberal president. It isn't a democracy anymore once Pandora's box is open.

I am having trouble following your argument Angel. You might want to try to explain it better.

The 14th amendment says that anyone born in the United States is a full American Citizen with equal rights and responsibilities.

It is true that some American Citizens born in the United States chose to flee to Canada to avoid the draft during the Vietnam war. I don't see the connection between this and the 14th Amendment.

I assume that your co-worker was born in the United States and is an American Citizen. She is no different than any other American Citizen. She has the rights of any other American Citizen; which includes free public school for her kids, the protection of a police force, and a public safety net (welfare) should she need it. She also has the responsibility that any other American Citizen has to pay taxes and do her civic duty. In that way she is no different than any other American citizen.

Neither of these examples has anything to do with the 14th Amendment, or would you like to explain why some we should divide people at birth this way; why some American citizens are good for the economy while others are bad.

Because people from other cultures may not be as honest as diligent as people who are born and raised here. It's not that ALL immigrants are bad, but a society like China that doesn't teach people to be honest, diligent or hard working, but rather focus on how to cheat, lie and take advantage of others. You can speak for your culture, I can speak for mine. There are legends about the Chinese GMAT / GRE prep program (if you know what the are) that they are so great and I am guaranteed to score high. Since I still speak and understand Chinese, I thought I go there to find out what is that they do so these people could score so high on the GRE / GMAT. To my utter surprise, the class teaches you how to cheat, what does the exam proctors do and how to get away with it and even worse, how get a copy of the exam so you can memorize the answers. WTF these people go to grad school if they just want to cheat their way in and out?

Certainly, not all Chinese are like this, but those who are eager to come here are likely planning to take advantage of the welfare here. I know many in my city who illegally came here just to have a baby so that they could stay. Then they cling on to social benefits or become a prostitute.Revising the 14th amendment will discourage these dishonest people from coming here because they won't be able to use their babies as a tool to get the green card. They don't give a **** about their kids. All then want is that green card.

Even worse, there are even people who pose as grad students to come here to steal America's top secret technology (and perhaps sold to North Korea). Did you know that the Chinese physicist that were sent here after WWII practically stole the atomic warhead design and took it right back to Mao Ze Dong? China denied all of it, but so the design of the Chinese warhead just so coincidentally, exactly the same as the USA's design? Thank God Mao was dead not long after and he didn't have a son (that was still living); otherwise, China would have become the same as North Korea, but with a bunch of nuclear warheads. Not only should America revise the 14th Amendment, they should also tighten international student Visa and require a thorough background check before these bad apples are allowed here.

There are several things I disagree with you about. Of course, the 14th amendment isn't going to be revised any time in the near future. The American public is far too diverse to allow that given the fact that the Constitution makes revising an Amendment a very difficult process.

But I will humor you.

1) I have not heard of any cases of high level espionage done by illegal immigrants. Generally the people who can get the security clearance that gives them access to state secrets are legal immigrants. So, this point is irrelevant.

2) I am surprised to hear that Chinese mothers and fathers don't care about their kids. I have met both legal and illegal immigrants. I have never met a mother or father who didn't care deeply for their children.

3) Go to any restaurant and look in the back at the people working the hardest and the dirtiest most difficult jobs. You will find them speaking Spanish or Chinese. These jobs are taken by immigrants. Same with the people who clean my building (and work very hard at it) and the people who do landscaping.

Of course there is no way to tell if they are here legally or not, except that sometimes on the news they are raided by ICE. A few years ago the state of Georgia passed tough anti-illegal immigration laws. The farmers suffered because they were relying on immigrant labor to do the hard work. Similar things have happened in other states.

To say that immigrants aren't coming here to work is ridiculous.

4) The 14th Amendment relates to babies. People who were born here, and spent their entire lives here. These aren't immigrants. They are Americans, born and bred. The 14th Amendment guarantees that like any other American, they have every right and opportunity to live, learn, grow and contribute.

It is a key part of American values and culture that you don't judge someone by who their parents are. The countries that don't have birthright citizenship have a big problem. There are people in France who have grown up there... maybe even their parents grew up there. They speak French, they grew up in the country. They know nowhere else... but they aren't French. This is not a good thing for these kids. And, it is not a good thing for France that there is a permanent underclass.

In America everyone who was born here is equal under the law. That is one of the things that makes America great.

I don't know what to tell you man. Believe what you believe and I have NEVER said immigrants came here to not work. I said THERE ARE immigrants who came here to take advantage of the benefits we have to offer. That DOES NOT mean ALL immigrants would do that. I also said THERE EXIST (more than you'd expect) parents in China who would murder their little girls or come here and use their babies as a tool to get green card, but that DOES NOT apply to all Chinese.

You need to learn to not apply my words to the EXTREME when I only pointed out that there are some and we need to filter them out. Those are here to do honest work, pay taxes and contribute to the society should obviously have a path to citizenship. It's about DISCOURAGING cheaters to come here, rather than taking away what's already there.

I'll tell you another story just happened a few days ago (unrelated to the 14th amendment but related to $15 wage and ACA). This old lady here at work sold me a VERY nice piece of furniture for very little money. I felt bad to give her so little for it, so I gave her $30 more, to make it even. She was so touched and I just thought her reaction was a little excessive -- it's only $30, not a big deal to me. So I chatted with her a bit.

She worked for all her life, an honest job but didn't pay very much. She mainly lives off social security and a small pension payment. Rising healthcare costs due to ACA (Medicare didn't kick in until age 65, and cost still rises). There will be even more rising costs of living if Federal Minimum wage should rise to $15. While America is looking forward to the next "biggest and brightest" idea. Seniors like her are being left behind to live in close to poverty.

This also has something to do with illegal immigration. Many Chinese families are bringing their elderly mother / father from China to get green card so they could leech onto Medicare. FYI, China's retirement age is 55 (some 60) so don't expect anyone over 60 to be willing to work let alone 65. There are only this much money from the federal government and more people sharing the pie means less for each participant. So are you saying it is what it is and we should not give a damn about American Seniors in favor of Senior immigrants?

I know you'll say if your grandmother wasn't allowed here you wouldn't be here so you'd vote for the immigrants, blah blah blah. True, there's no perfect policy -- any incentive you give a group of people ultimately means less for another group. If you have a rice field and invite your neighbors to share your rice, that's certainly a good gesture. However, if you invite 10, 20, 30....etc, eventually you'll run out of rice. Your argument is this nation is built by immigrants -- true. We all are immigrants, except the native American Indians. The country can continue bring in talented people who are willing to make this nation better. Or, the nation can bring in anyone indiscriminately and watch the pie shrinking and shrinking until one day there's nothing left.