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The artisits intentions: Do they matter?

 
 
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2004 09:54 am
Do you think that the artists intentions matter?

I say no for two reasons.

First, unless the artist is available to tell every single person who views that piece what the he "meant" by that piece, then the viewers will draw their own conclusions about that piece.

For example, abstract expressionism is not just a big canvas that is splattered with paint. There is a theory and idea behind the creation of that painting. Yet many people, unaware of what the artist was trying to do, will look at that canvas and say, "That's not art. I can do that."

Even if the artisit were available to explain what he was trying to do, some people might still look at it and come up with their own conclusion.

This brings me to my second reason:

I think being part of an art movement (any art movement: pop, cubism, surrealism, neo-classical, expressionism, etc.) actually helps communicate the artists intentions. As stated in reason number one, some people will look at art and come up with their own conclusions, but a defined movement at least has a theory or idea behind it and those familiar with those ideas have a better chance to understand the artists intentions.

The problem lies in the fact that there is no longer a defined art movement. Since Pop art has made its rise and fall, there has not been a defined art movement. You can track the progression of art through time starting with cave paintings, believed to be informational paintings telling other hunters where to find prey, through classical Greek and Roman art, and on to medieval art, onto the rebirth or Renaissance movement, and then such movements as Romanticism, Realism, Impressionism and Post-Impressionism, and with out listing all of the movements, through the 50's and 60's with abstract expressionism, Pop art and Post-Modernism.

It is my belief that there has not been a defined movement since then. One could argue that digital art is the new movement, but I would argue that it is more of a new medium and lacks a defined style or idea. The effect this has had is a hodgepodge of different styles with no originality, cohesion, or theory behind it. It seems that the artist is usually only concerned with shock value.

This lack of defined style makes it nearly impossible for a viewer to understand the artists intentions and almost begs us to come up with our own conclusions. A good example of this is the 1996 painting by Chris Ofili "The Holy Virgin Mary" which depicted the Virgin Mary which the artist then splattered with elephant dung. It caused quite a controversy since the exhibit was held at a public museum and funded by tax payers money. The exhibit also contained animals in formaldehyde and sculptures of people with genitalia for faces.

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/offices/comm/csj/991008/madonna/vmary%20bw.JPG

The pure shock value of the exhibit was what caused the controversy and was fueled by the Mayors threat to cut funding to the museum. People drew a battle line and picked sides. You were either on the side of religious people who took offense to the exhibit and wanted it shut down or you were on the side that believed that shutting down the exhibit was censorship and a violation of the artists freedom of speech. Lost in the whole mix was what the painting and exhibit were about.

So the question is: Do you think that an artists intentions matter?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 6,494 • Replies: 74
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Region Philbis
 
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Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2004 09:58 am
i think they matter -- to the artist...
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2004 04:35 pm
My artistic intentions are both conscious and unconscious. But I can only talk to people about the former. I sometimes caution them to be wary, because the painting process usually involves a kind of "logic-in-use" (that which we actually did throughout the process) and a kind of "reconstructed logic" * (that which we say we did). Often, in my case at least, the two are not the same, if not contradictory. There is always a mysterious dimension, for the artist, of s/he does.
I do not accept, for example, the claim by many abstract expressionists--especially the so-called action painters--that they are "expressing" only their unconscious impulses. It seems to me very unlikely that they can know if their unconscious impulses have been expressed. They are, for the most part, creating paintings, with a conscious concern to have a result that meets certain aesthetic, technical, intellectual, and maybe ideological, standards. Nevertheless, this is not to deny that abstract expressionism DOES involves expression of unconscious, as well as conscious goals and drives, but so does virtually all art.

* These two phrases are taken from the philosopher, Abraham Kaplan. He uses them to distinguish between two aspects of scientific research.
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ossobuco
 
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Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 01:00 am
Yes.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 01:02 am
Yes.
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Vivien
 
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Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 02:58 am
yes, i think they matter.

It should be possible to relate to a painting without knowing the artists intentions because they a) are clearly shown or b) the painting works without knowing them - but knowing the intentions can lead to a greater depth of understanding and response to the image,

I find a great deal of conceptual work boring as the intentions/idea is all and the work is uninteresting in its own right.

I don't like Chris Ofili's work much as i feel he is just going for the shock value - there is only so much you can do with elephant dung!

For instance, the David Prentice paintings that I love and have featured before, are about time, and though you do feel this when looking at them, the explanation of influence from comic books of an ongoing story with divisions, helps to understand some of his more abstracted works with their slashed lines and breaks.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 04:17 am
I'm not a painter, but I do write poetry, and am revising some pieces for publication. Poetry and visual art are similar in that they are subjective. Whatever my intentions were while writing something, I cannot expect a reader to be in my head, and be able to understand multiple levels of thought in my personal cache of symbols.

However, when a reader takes something from a piece of mine in a completely different way than what I had intended, it tickles me pink, and makes me look at my own work from a new perspective. Ultimately, art, to me is about communication, and an exchange of opinion and ideas.
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jpinMilwaukee
 
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Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 07:29 am
cavfancier wrote:
Ultimately, art, to me is about communication, and an exchange of opinion and ideas.


That brings up an interesting question... for those that feel that the artists intentions do matter, does an artist create only for himself or do they create with the purpose of communication?

If an artist makes a painting and hangs it on their own living room wall, then that artist knows what was intended and will probably be around to describe it to anyone else that sees it. But, public art is viewed by many people from many different backgrounds with many different points of view almost always with no frame of refference to the artist or his intents. So if the goal of the artist is to communicate something, and the viewer does not see what the artist is communicating, does this make the piece a failure? It might still be nice to look at, but as a form of communication (the artists intent) the goal was not achieved.
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sozobe
 
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Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 07:39 am
I think part of the mark of a successful artwork is successfully conveying intentions even if the artist isn't there to explain it.

A caveat would be that the audience is reasonably educated and receptive -- it doesn't mean that if "Guernica" is shown to, I dunno, the president of the US (ahem) and he says "I don't get it" that Picasso did a bad job. But you know, when thinking of examples of "uneducated and unreceptive" I could imagine a whole lot of people getting Guernica. I do think that's part of it's power.

It's kind of an un-subtle painting, though (!), probably not the best example.

Anyway, it doesn't have to be "this makes me think of this specific battle of this war and..." It can be, this makes me think of the horror and futility of war. Or even (as we get more abstract), this makes me think of violence and bloodshed.
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jpinMilwaukee
 
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Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 08:37 am
So to the artist, intentions matter, and to those who can understand them, intentions matter.

But what is the paintings were these:

http://www.francis-bacon.cx/crucifixions/cruc62a.jpg
http://www.francis-bacon.cx/crucifixions/cruc62b.jpg
http://www.francis-bacon.cx/crucifixions/cruc62c.jpg

Do you understand the artists intentions? What are they? Does that make the paintings any less/more successful?
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 08:46 am
This makes me think of violence and bloodshed. :-D

No, OK, some aspects:

Red and black are very confrontational, unsettling. I think they have to do with emotional upheaval. The meat could have something to do with feeling objectified, thing-like rather than person-like. Also a sense of threat, especially in the first one, with the two people looking over their shoulders and the meat in the foreground. Also confinement, some sort of small room. Being trapped with a threat.

I wish I could see them bigger, I'm avoiding hitting "quote" and seeing where you got them/ seeing them bigger so I'm not influenced.

Anyway, they're macabre, they seem to me to mostly be about displacement and fear.
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jpinMilwaukee
 
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Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 09:05 am
sozobe wrote:
I wish I could see them bigger, I'm avoiding hitting "quote" and seeing where you got them/ seeing them bigger so I'm not influenced.


Ohhh, you're tricky Soz.

Alright, the link is here where you can also see larger sizes of the last two. If you don't want to read the whole thing, here is a quote

Quote:
The theme of the Crucifixion exercised a strange and disturbing fascination on Bacon for many years. But its specific impact on his art springs from its confluence with two further factors: on the one hand, the extension of the single picture into the triptych, and on the other, the introduction of the motif of meat, the raw, bleeding flesh of the slaughterhouse and the butchers slab, a sight that affected Bacon like almost no other and was to become his personal metaphor of death.


You were pretty close with your first sentence "this makes me think of violence and bloodshed" but you were alittle further off when you said "something to do with being objectified."

My feeling is that no matter what the artists intentions were (crucifix=slaughterhouse=personal metaphor for death) that any feeling or thought or idea that you get from the paintings are right. You take from the painting what you will.

The artists intentions do not matter because the viewer looks at the same piece of work through a different set of filters and life experiences and takes from the work what they want.
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stuh505
 
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Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 09:12 am
Quote:
For example, abstract expressionism is not just a big canvas that is splattered with paint. There is a theory and idea behind the creation of that painting. Yet many people, unaware of what the artist was trying to do, will look at that canvas and say, "That's not art. I can do that."

Even if the artisit were available to explain what he was trying to do, some people might still look at it and come up with their own conclusion.


There are many definitions for art. But in this day in age, pretty much anything that is made with the intention of being art is safely categorized as art. So if some guy organizes a trash pile and calls it art, we can't really argue anymore - fine, it's art because you made it with that intention.

But the real purpose of art is just to be pleasing to look at or experience. With 2D art it's just to be pleasing to look at.

Art can be pleasing to look at for many reasons. The most obvious reason is pure aesthetic/compositional beauty. But there are other (albeit less contributing) factors such as the message of the piece or the feelings that it inspires subconsciously...

But if the art does not please the viewer, it didn't do a good job of achieving it's purpose, and thus it's not very good art. If these non-typical methods of making someone enjoy looking at the piece are not superficially obvious, then they aren't working!

If one needs to be told that it was made by an elephant's tail...that shouldn't change anything.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 09:30 am
Meh, we're back to being subjective again. I had a Schiele nude as my wallpaper for a bit, that looked amputated in some way. I found the juxtaposition of the clear empathy of the young Egon for the disfigured woman and the brutal honesty of the depiction beautiful in it's own way. My wife demanded I change my wallpaper, because she found the painting highly offensive. We were both right.
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 09:51 am
stuh505 wrote:

But the real purpose of art is just to be pleasing to look at or experience. With 2D art it's just to be pleasing to look at.


I have to disagree with you on this statement. Not all art is a Thomas Kinkade painting. El Lissitzky made propaganda posters that were definitely not made just to please the viewer. Below is one example called "Beat the Whites with the Red Wedge."

http://www.usc.edu/schools/annenberg/asc/projects/comm544/library/images/706tn.jpg

Lester Beall is another example (although he was more of a graphic designer than a fine artist). Below is one of his posters.

http://www.mcbcollection.com/media/beal01lg.jpg

I realize that this goes against my theory that artists intentions do not matter but I feel that my theory still stands. For example, while the El Lissitzky poster was made to promote the Russian Revolution and would certainly have meaning to those involved, it would have little meaning in say... Mexico or other places where neither the artist nor the revolution mattered.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 09:57 am
jp, sometimes the point of studying art is to have someone elaborate upon it's intended meaning. For example, the Lisstizky piece, with the phrase "Beat the Whites with the Red Wedge" clearly indicates an overthrow of the so-called "White Russians" through a Communist revolution. True, not many people would know that just by looking at the picture, or reading the slogan, but many people in other countries fighting for some sort of freedom would be able to relate to the artist's intent, once they understood it, for better or worse.
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stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 09:57 am
Quote:
El Lissitzky made propaganda posters that were definitely not made just to please the viewer.


I don't see how that is contradictory to my statement...you are just pointing out the difference between progoganda and art. With the propoganda, he is trying to promote a political opinion. This is the primary goal. In order to help achieve this goal, he wants the poster to look aesthetically pleasing so that people will be attracted to look at the poster and actually read what it says.

He has obviously taken careful compositional consideration into trying to make these posters aesthetically interesting...
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Vivien
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 11:03 am
stuh I don't agree with you - I don't find Guernica beautiful for instance - but it is powerful. Then there are other artists who comment on war, Nash, Goya, Kollowicz Max ?Beckman - all brilliant but not always beautiful by any means - a butchered body hanging on a tree with amputated limbs is not beautiful, but what a statement!

I absolutely detest Bacon and his images are a million miles from beautiful. Each to their own - I realise that others can respond to them. All the stuff Soz said and more!

Lucian Freud's work is not usually describably as beautiful - but again it is incredibly powerful



I definitely don't agree with the Kincaid school of painting. Work like that is not beautiful but chocolate boxy, shallow and deeply unimaginative



Cav, I agree that people may pick up things that you didn't consciously put in, or intend to - but a sad introverted poem or painting should be readable as such surely - or a sense of excitement and wind blowing, storms passing/whatever, sadness, anger, excitement, introversion etc etc can be expressed and understood by the use of colour and marks and of course in poetry can be expressed without bluntly being stated by the phrasing and rhythm and tone of the words.
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Pantalones
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 02:03 pm
Intentions matter. They matter to the artist and to the person who reads on a level superior to mechanical reading (or it's equivalent in other arts).

I agree with stuh when he says that intentions seem to define what is art.

The intentions vary from artist to artist, we cannot say that all artists write for the same purpose. The most common intentions are to inform of something, create an impact, show visual beauty, acknowledgment or money, etc.

The great thing about art is that it can mean different things to different people. Even if one doesn't have the tools to appreciate (or understand) art in it's entirely, he/she is able to enjoy it just for the feeling he/she gets when admiring the work of art just for its beauty even the intention of the artist was to criticize racism (or any other topic).
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 02:09 pm
Vivien wrote: "Cav, I agree that people may pick up things that you didn't consciously put in, or intend to - but a sad introverted poem or painting should be readable as such surely - or a sense of excitement and wind blowing, storms passing/whatever, sadness, anger, excitement, introversion etc etc can be expressed and understood by the use of colour and marks and of course in poetry can be expressed without bluntly being stated by the phrasing and rhythm and tone of the words."

Absolutely, and blunt, obvious poetry or painting is not art, IMO. However, if it sends a message, and people extrapolate a personal meaning from that message, independent of the artist's original intent, to me, it's a successful piece.
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