Reincarnation & Forgetting

Yes, Coluber, Tat tvam asi (that art thou) is the most spiritual "formula" I know. To me it bridges the illusory gap behind "me" and all that "surrounds" me. I AM the world I experience; the "objects" of experience do not confront me. And there is the synonomous zen phrase: "All things enlighten me." They show me who/what I am.
I remember Kuvasz. How come we don't see him in these threads?

tcis,

I haven't read all the posts in this long thread, I am sorry if I might be repeating some stuff here.



This is no scientific proof, but a story goes...Buddha used to conduct meditation where he used to let his students experience their own birth. That experience used to convince people to get out cycles of births as
birth is supposedly very traumatic experience for the child. That trauma perhaps makes one forget the past just as some trauma in middle of life may cause that. Also as we grow and learn, the superficial mind develops and the subtle layers our existence starts getting clouded.




Reincarnation is seen as result of past impressions. ChitraGupta is a mythical characterization of the entity that defines your next life. Chitra is image and gupta is hidden. The hidden impression, a subtle layer of mind that is beyond our body defines our core instincts and shapes the trajectory of next life.

Caste system is nothing but categorization of these past instincts. There is nothing like high or low instinct here. That is just pure ignorance of this doctrine. The instincts are just different and yet all essential. Every society needs rulers/warriors, intellectuals, businessmen and workers/helpers. Just as the body needs limbs as well as brain. Every society has and needs some formal or informal division of labor and everyone is given due place and respect. Here even animals are included and deified and recognized for their role in the society.

Past Karma or past instinct merely defines your inclinations and role in the body of the next society. The goal of all spiritual teachings is to get past all instincts and stop this trajectory from one existence (instinct) to another. That is liberation, enlightenment, Samadhi or Nirvana. This goal is available for everyone irrespective of one's current instinct or position in the society. The enlightened sages have came from all walks of the society. Some were kings, some were brahmins and some were mere cobblers. And they all are revered.

Thank you Bluesky for a nice account of the cosmological justfication for the social and economic division of labor in India past (and to some extent today in rural areas). It is a system that grounds the social structure in "religious" principles. Unlike a class system in which individuals are permitted, at least in principle, to ascend (or descend), the metaphysics of caste permits neither. It is fixed. Yet it has been demonstrated that individuals and groups have managed to elevate themselves, in violation of the caste rules. They just demonstrated that they have been historically misplaced, and were able to get away with it when they had enough economic power to force higher castes to acknowledge their claim. In this way the caste system goes unchallenged while mobility occurs. But that was rare. Yes, the religious system also enabled individuals to "shortcut" the system (not to have to wait many lifetimes to rise through Brahmin status). These are the yogis who underwent spiritual training to achieve a samadhi, or liberation from the karmic cycle of rebirth. That's part of my understanding of the sociological dimensions of the caste system.

That is not a right interpretation of that metaphysics. That part is incorrect as most vedic sages themselves (out of about 20 prominent ones) were not born as brahmins with exception of Vasishta and Bharadvaja (perhaps). Some like Gargi and Maitrayi were even women. This exists even today in that society. You will see new generation of spiritual teachers irrespective of their social position or role in the society. It is not that rare as you have come to believe.

Also, in PurushSukta, a vedic poem, the Purush (brahman/spirit/supreme) says I manifest as all four classes of the society. Vedas encourage all to see themselves as the supreme entity itself. 'Aham Brahmasmi' ( I am that) and further adds 'Tat Tvam Asi' (you too are that). In this design, in spiritual identity, no class structure is implied. Hence these ideas of spiritually ascending (or descending) are a bit misplaced. It is only a matter of realization which is traditionally and legitimately available to all.

JLN,

I, of course agree with Coluber's support of your "realization of unity".

Is it the Buddhist case that since "memory" involves "attachment" of an arbitrary ego and simplistic "time" then RE-incarnation is essentially another aspect of "samsara" ?

..and perhaps more can be learned from Kuvasz's absence than from his presence.

Bluesky, thanks for the phrase, aham Brahmasmi (I am that), and the corrrection of my interpretation of Tat Tvam Asi (from "that art thou" to "thou TOO art that").
I want to make clear that my comments were about the political sociology implications of the ideology of reincarnation. I was emphasizing how the political/caste structure of traditional Indian received its validation from the religious system (i.e., the political and social USE of religion to absolutize the jajmani system of dividing labor and profits). I think I acknowledged that individuals of all varnas who were sufficiently talented (spiritually) could opt out of the stratification system by becoming successful sanyassi (yogis). I used the term shortcut; I could have said "short-circuit" the system. Your perspective in this discussion seems to be that of a traditional Indian who chooses not to make an anaytical distinction between caste as religion and caste as politics in order to make the kinds of "objective" interpretations political sociologists and anthropologists make in their secular studies of India. Are you a Hindu? (no need to answer) By the way, I recall one political anthropologist who argued that the analytical distinction I've reported here totally disfigures and falsifies the internal cultural meaning of the caste system. He is right, if one wants to understand the system as would an ethnographic phenomenological anthropologist. But it can be argued that much is lost analytically if we do not take more of an outsider's perspective in order to more objectively and cynically examine the religious system's non-religious implications for Indian society.

gadhi said something like "it is due to natures kindness that we cannot remember our past lives" its true too, since life is moslty suffering (which is very true) if we remembered all of that (loved ones dying, tragedies, etc) we would go insane and probably kill ourselves

Gold Barz, yes, life contains much physical and psychological suffering (not to be confused with spiritual sorrow), but it also contains much opportunity (unless you live in Darfur right now) for physical and psychological pleasure. It is the attachment to both the pain (our obsessions with avoiding it) and pleasure (our obsession to repeat and maximize it)--and the ego that does (or, as Tywvel has taught us, the ego that IS) the attaching that deprives us of joy (the liberation from spiritual sorrow).

Fresco, good to hear from you. As I understand Buddhism, it is both the anticipation of future "goods" and the regret of past "bads" (the simplistic time factor) and the memory involved that gives rise to attachment which is at the heart of samsara. This emphasis on memory was stressed by Krishnamurti. This would, I suppose, lead to such notions as re-incarnation of ego-selves and the Christian notion of Heaven involving the protection of ego-souls.