Reincarnation & Forgetting

I suppose in some ways, it's like the Abramaic god of the Western world saying "do as I say, or be punished", but in a more subtle way. The problem here is that so many Eastern religions have different ideas about reincarnation. Which one particularily irks you?

Well I really love aspects of Hinduism. But aspects of the caste system that keeps people born into "untouchable" lower castes for generation upon generation with no chance for merit-based escape seems particularly irksome, regardless of the so-called "stabilizing effect on society" argument.

But in general the "forgetting past lives" is the issue that troubles me for today. I forget why.

It's because memory is maintained by out physical brains, and when those die, so do all out memories. So what is it that actually reincarnates anyway, and if our memories of it are gone, is it really reincarnation? Now, that's question to ponder.

The doctrine of reincarnation is a product of India's caste system. It is/was a way of validating and legitimizing its stratification system. The caste position of individuals and groups is defined as a metaphysically grounded reality. It is built into the structure of Ultimate Reality. Wow, what a way to authorize the priviliges of the higher "clean" or"cleaner" castes. The only way to progress in terms of reincarnation is to accept one's caste status and comply with its normative role obligations completely. If you rebel, if you deny your obligations you will invite rebirth in a lower form. Buddhism rejected the caste system and redefined reincarnation in a more subtle and non-sociologically significant way. For me, the central or only thing that matters in Buddhism is its focus on individual wisdom (the realization of one's true nature, its unity with the Whole). All else smacks of empty ritualism--to me.

And the only little part that "matters" to JL, is the "belief" nonsense...which, of course, like a true "believer"...is here described as "the REALIZATION of one's true nature, its unity with the WHOLE."

Re: Reincarnation & Forgetting
In Plato's theory reminiscence the soul exists in the world of the essences, the Forms - for instance, in the contemplation of the absolute form of beauty, justice, good. Whith birth the soul becomes integrated in the body - he calls the body "the grave of the soul"- and under the influence of the transitory world of our senses, forgets the reality of the essences.
Plato's theory and Hindoo belief in reincarnation suffer from a common mistake. They suppose the existence of something not clearly defined - the soul - that would give the identity to those multiple lives.
So the problem of remembering past lives is this: what do you think that makes what you are, that gives your identity? If you believe in the soul, then I think Plato's explanation - in "Phedro" - would be satisfatory.

Very good, Val. In my view, Plato and Descartes, while they have had perhaps the most powerful influences on Western thought, have also caused the most "damage"--Plato with his reification of meaning and Descartes with his reification of the sense of self.

Frank, always the jouster: "And the only little part that 'matters' to JL, is the 'belief' nonsense...which, of course, like a true 'believer'...is here described as 'the REALIZATION of one's true nature, its unity with the WHOLE.'"
It is ironical that that "realization" is not so much a belief as it is an experience, available to you once you suspend your BELIEF in its 'irrationalitly.' At first, before it is "tested" (in the form of personal-subjective verification) it is a kind of working hypothesis. After a while it becomes a fleeting and occasional glimpse or insight. Eventually it becomes an almost consistent perspective.
I tell you this, not to joust, but as an offering. Take it or leave it my friend.

quote]

And the only little part that "matters" to JL, is the "belief" nonsense...which, of course, like a true "believer"...is here described as "the REALIZATION of one's true nature, its unity with the WHOLE."[/quote]

The realization of one's trrue nature and unity with the whole is anything but belief, in fact, belief or non-belief are the interdependent opposites here. Unity is what you have to go beyond intellect to see. Believers and non-believers are both "true believers." Neither can get beyond the tricks of the intellect.

Here's a response to tcis.


The Woody Allen character in his movie, "Hannah and Her Sisters" has a religious crisis and shops around, literally, looking for a religion or philosophy to adopt. He quotes something that Nietzsche supposedly said, that we all live our lives over and over again exactly as we are doing in this life. Woody Allen said, "It's not worth it, not if I have to sit through the ice capades again." Woody Allen finally resolves the crisis by forming a loving relationship with a woman and stops obsessing about the future.

So, I guess we're going to either obsess or stop obsessing and start enjoying life. Basically, that's what we have to do. Even when we have some Earth-shattering enlightenment—and we're all capable of this—we have to eventually forget about that and get on with our lives. We have to stop worrying about past lives or future lives or a future heaven at some point, because if we don't we'll spend those lives obsessing too.

It's all here and now or nothing. If we spend our whole lives thinking about god or past lives, and it turns out that there is no heaven, then we've wasted our time here. If there is a heaven, then we still have wasted our time here, and we will still waste our time in heaven. It's now or never, an old song but a good one.

Also, consider this. You can think of reincarnation as the moment to moment rebirth of the ego illusion. Because of our memories, we are able to construct the image of a self, a substantial being or center that travels through time. It's sort of like a neon sign that shows something that appears to be moving, but it's just a series of lights going on and off. If the ego illusion is destroyed, that doesn’t mean we cease to exist; it simply means we exist in a state of bliss. However, most of us live with the ego illusion, but we don’t take it as seriously.

This thing we call consciousness is a result of the intellect, and it's a curse and a blessing. It perplexes itself by trying to see into its own nature, and it can't. Sometimes, without trying, we slip into some transcendent state of mind that is beyond time, and that is where you understand your nature. Alan Watts called it "cosmic consciousness." After you've experienced this, it radically changes your outlook on life, and you try to explain the experience to people. You miserably fail.

The best way to explain it is through myths, that is, metaphors. But throughout history myths have been taken literally, thus missing the point totally.

If you observe animals, you see that they don't have a problem with the past or the future; it doesn't exist for them. They live in a timeless state of bliss, but they don't know it. If they suddenly became aware of time as we are, they'd either have to become immediately neurotic or crazy because of the constant danger they're in. Will they get enough food? Will they be killed by a predator? What saves them is that they live in the moment perceiving with they senses everything around it, and they don’t and can’t think about the future. Now, what if a dog or cat is born with a mutated gene that causes it to have a strong enough intellect to become aware of time and its self in time. Does this animal all of a sudden gain a soul because of its strong intellect? What about a computer or android under the same conditions?

Humans have a tool, a blessing that helps us survive, the intellect. This intellect also has the capacity to allow us to enjoy life a thousand fold. But it can cause problems, because it makes us aware of time, the past and the future, and that can become a curse. Mankind in all its history has yet to deal adequately with the fact of its intellect. We form religions, and we continue to hold onto them even though they become anachronistic and cause additional problems and conflicts to the point of warfare, because another religion’s myth vary slightly from ours. All we have to do is learn to concentrate on the present, because after all, that's all there is. I guess that’s where meditation comes in. You’ll have to ask JLNobody about that.

And it is even more ironic that Christians use much the same argument when they are insisting that they KNOW a God exists because they have "experienced" it.




Yep...Christians tell me that all the time.

All I have to do is to suspend my "belief in its irrationality"...and I too will be able to "experience" the god of the Bible.


To you...and to the Christians...I say the same thing:

I THINK you are deluding yourselves.

To you...as I have with the Christians...I ask:

How do you know you are not playing mind tricks with yourself...deluding yourself?




If not word for word...certainly idea for idea...with the Christian manifesto.




I'll leave it.

But allow me to make an offering in return.

I do not know the nature of REALITY. I do not see anywhere enough evidence to support the guesses about REALITY offered by theists, Christians, Jews, Islamics, Hindus(i), Buddhists, atheists, or whatever...and I suspect there is no such evidence.

I suspect everyone on the planet is in the same position.


I am damn near certain the world would be much, much better off if we all just acknowledged that we don't know...and cut out all the guessing.

Coluber, I havn't got past the following statement yet, but I wish I had said it:
"The realization of one's trrue nature and unity with the whole is anything but belief, in fact, belief or non-belief are the interdependent opposites here. Unity is what you have to go beyond intellect to see. Believers and non-believers are both "true believers." Neither can get beyond the tricks of the intellect."
Excellent insight.

I had an interesting experience today. It makes me realize that the best philosophy, be it religious or otherwise, is no philosophy at all.

What was the experience, Letty?

JL, I stood alone in a Shell filling station. The hood was up on my car allowing it to cool. So many strangers were willing to help. My husband, who was supposed to be following me, had disappeared. I kept watching the highway, no sign of my too familiar Dodge. I knew that I had to do something, when suddenly it occurred to me that all was out of my hands.

I didn't think about karma, or descartes, or Plato, or anything. I just realized that no thoughts were the best thoughts. So I waited and knew that it would either work out or it wouldn't. That is the still small voice of calm that I have experienced so many times.

It is not easy for me to ask for help. It never has been, but I had to do so. It came to a peaceful conclusion.....................................................

Good, Letty. The zen buddhists have a humorous statement that is sometimes apt:
"Well don't just do something, sit."

<smile>...a real smile.

One parting verse:

In feeling, we are numb,
In speaking, we are dumb,
But in all things,
Let something be our guide,
Master and move on.

Goodnight,
From Letty with love

Thanks, JL. You're the only one on either A2K or Abuzz that ever knew what I was talking about. I always make a point to read all of your posts that I can even though I don't always respond.

Thanks, JL. You're the only one on either A2K or Abuzz that ever knew what I was talking about. I always make a point to read all of your posts that I can even though I don't always respond.

Yeah, well I never know what either of you are talking about.
Coluber...great answer on the reincarnation/forgetting question.
That post hit home more than most I've read in awhile, but I almost didn't say anything til I read your comment above. Note that people may be reading your stuff and getting it but not necessarily commenting...your first longer post above spoke to that quiet calm voice in my head.

Thanks, Extra Medium. There probably are a few more people that have agreed with me, on reflection. Don't try to read too much into what I'm saying. What's real is real, and that's all you have to see to be spiritual. There's nothing supernatural about it. If you observe nature, you begin to see how astounding it is; you begin to see the intelligence inherent in all living things.

There is a member named Kuvasz on A2K, and who was very active on Abuzz, and he quoted from the Upanishads:"You are it" or "thou art that". He interpreted this statement as "That divinity which you seek outside, and which you first become aware of because you recognize it outside, is actually your innermost being."

It's one of the best spiritual statements I've seen. It means that all spiritual truth is available within yourself. And there are no authorities on that truth. So we have to beware of people who claim or cite authorities on the truth. It's called selling iceboxes to the Eskimos.