I understand, Diane. I only want us to kill them before we boil them. I always kill my chickens before I pluck and roast them.
0 Replies
Letty
1
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Wed 29 Sep, 2004 12:01 pm
Yawl know why Bo's not back? Cause he doesn't want to hear them lobsters scream when you put them in boiling water. (they do, too)
and, because he doesn't know the answer to my one test question.
Right, JL. Let someone else be the lobster hit man.
0 Replies
cavfancier
1
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Wed 29 Sep, 2004 01:15 pm
I feel the need to clarify the lobster questions. First off, lobsters do not have vocal chords, and therefore cannot scream, even if they wanted to. The high-pitched noise that one sometimes hears (btw, I have never heard it myself, maybe it's how I plunge 'em) is simply air escaping from the body through the exoskeleton as they cook. Second, killing a lobster before cooking it is just fine, if you don't mind watching them crawl around in the sink for several minutes with a split head, raising their claws towards heaven in a "why me" sort of way.
0 Replies
val
1
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Thu 30 Sep, 2004 03:59 am
Sorry for changing subject but I want to ask you this: beeing so deeply concerned with animal rights, what do you think about killing rats?
Another thing: I was perplexed by your statement that lobsters cry. How do they manage to cry? Are lobster ventriloquists?
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cavfancier
1
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Thu 30 Sep, 2004 04:05 am
When I was doing my first restaurant apprenticeship, I was calmly prepping and the entremetier was getting ready to cook some lobsters. She was talking to them. "Hello my pretties, are you ready to die? Are you? You will make a tasty bisque..." Just as she dropped them in the pot, I yelled out "Eeeeeeeeeh!" in a high-pitched whine. Freaked her out, heh heh, but she had a good laugh.
0 Replies
BoGoWo
1
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Sat 2 Oct, 2004 04:35 pm
Asherman wrote:
Utopian schemes have an unfortunate tendency of becoming nightmare dystopias. They give everyone a nice warm, cozy feeling as they are formulated. The Communist Manifesto really sounds good the first time we read it, but I doubt that many survivors of the Gulag retain much faith in it.
[ Utopian schemes that have merit (Communism being one of them) usually fail because we are still clinging to the ways of our biological past, and unwilling to break out into the light of 'rational, fair, and compassionate behaviour'.]
There is a positive danger to enacting laws and manifestos based on "ought". Such pronouncements wouldn't be necessary if it were human nature to behave the way someone thinks they "ought" to behave. People and human affairs are more complex than any formula for making a perfect, or even better, world. We are driven not so much by what is prescribed by others in high-sounding terms, as we are by our immediate desires and perceptions of what we want. "Ought" people to be more thoughtful, patient, compassionate, giving, etc.? Sure, but saying so won't make it so. We are overloaded, especially in the world of the early 21st century, by "information" and interest groups vying for our attention. I think many, perhaps most of us, begin to filter out a lot of the messages so urgently pushed on us. This idea is just another bit of background noise, because it is overly simple in a complex world. It is not possible to implement, and even if it were the negative consequences would be large.
[ What human beings "ought" to do is frequently only too obvious to them; and the consequences of that "doing" belie their life's mistakes.]
There is a sentiment that the world would somehow be better if there was a single world government, or if the UN had the ability to forcibly implement it's decisions. I think that would lead to a nightmarish world far more frightening than the seeming chaos we have today. Imagine a world where there was no escape for a person or group opposing the universal order. Is that which is "good" for Nigeria, also "good" for Belgium? Who is to decide where and how world resources are distributed? Would any appreciable number of American's give up our Justice system for one based on the Napoleonic Code, or where a person must prove their innocence? To implement the manifesto suggested by this thread, the UN would have to use force and the individual freedom of every person in the world would be circumscribed.
[i see a world in which there are no 'Americans', Canadians, French, Afganis, Belorussians,...............there are only citizens of this planet free, and equal under a democratically devised code of rights and responsibilities applicable to all]
Privacy and personal preference would vanish to ensure that no one would have a juicy steak, or use force to defend their lives or property.
[property is nonsense; no one 'owns' anything, but they displace it from all; every steak you enjoy is eaten in a world where millions of children wake every morning hungry]
The individual would be reduced to nothing, while the power of the State would be everything. [currently the 'power of the state' imposes the will of a small group of 'individuals' upon the rest]
No, no, no. Never, and I doubt if you would be able to convince more than a handful of thoughtful people anywhere in the world to adopt such a simplistic policy.
[The equitable sharing of the resources of this planet is, indeed, "simplistic"]
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Letty
1
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Sat 2 Oct, 2004 05:04 pm
My word, that was long, Bo. ...but in a way I agree. We only own our birthdays and our names.
0 Replies
Asherman
1
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Sat 2 Oct, 2004 05:23 pm
BoGoWo,
I had no idea you were such an admirer of Marx and the Communist Utopia. As an abstract idea it has a certain charm, but every attempt at implementation has been disasterous and led to great suffering before collapse.
0 Replies
BoGoWo
1
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Sat 2 Oct, 2004 06:17 pm
Exactly; Communism is a great idea if it were to describe the way carefully programed robots should interect with one another, but as a creed for 'human' consumption, it misses the point - greed and avarice rule the day.
Compete or hand in your 'birth certificate'.
Sorry gang; i'm off again this is a busy time for the art and culture of TO; and there is much to do and see.......................
[back later]
0 Replies
cicerone imposter
1
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Sat 2 Oct, 2004 06:28 pm
I find it interesting that we think the way we kill our food stuff is disgusting while the slaughter of humans go on in Africa and Iraq.
0 Replies
JLNobody
1
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Sat 2 Oct, 2004 09:57 pm
Asherman's comment that" Utopian schemes have an unfortunate tendency of becoming nightmare dystopias" is affirmed by Aldous Huxley's books, Brave New World and Island. The first is about a dystopia and the second an argument for why valid utopias can never find realization in this greed-infested world.
0 Replies
BoGoWo
1
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Sat 2 Oct, 2004 11:30 pm
The challenge is, it seems whether we have to reinvent ourselves in a new, probably mechanical/AI/silicon, iteration - the next evolutionary step with the more advanced, aware, eco-savvy hominids serving as 'midwives'; or can we grow out of the shroud of biological necessity, shed the instincts of the savage, and elevate ourselves to meet the demands and expectations of a 'brave new society'?
[Will it be 'our' destiny, or the jurisdiction of a new species?]
0 Replies
Asherman
1
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Sun 3 Oct, 2004 03:39 am
For the foreseeable future we are unlikely to do either BoGoWo. The branching decision that science fiction is so fond of is so far beyond the horizon that it can not be properly planned for. Far too many variables for projecting anything like that, so it is better in my opinion to focus on the very serious problems immediately before us. For U.S. Politics the horizon is only about two weeks. Some strong, consistent trend lines have horizons out to around ten years, but no projection beyond two years will often have a probability above 90% (and even those are rare and for very narrow projections).
Some major problems confronting the species within the next ten-twenty years are: famine, epidemics, energy resources, and, to a somewhat lesser degree, large scale war. These problems exist as relatively high probabilities, almost certainties, today and unless something alters the equations will increase in probability as we approach the horizon. There may be other major problems that crop up, or become more pressing as time passes.
In each of these four problems population size, density and cohort distribution are important elements in what outcomes we can expect. Because our world has come to depend so much on high-speed, high-capacity transportation, energy resources/production may be critical.
Famine and the appearance of a disease with a high-mortality rate, like the Spanish Lady, would be the most lethal. High density populations concentrated on territory with rapidly diminishing agricultural capacity, as in Asia, are especially vulnerable. The breeding ground dangerous diseases are Africa, South America, and Southeast Asia, where most of our flu strains originate. Spanish Lady probably did not originate in Southeast Asia, but it was a flu virus. The problem with energy production is less likely to be directly lethal to our species, but it is predictably going to become worse over the next ten years if something drastic doesn't alter the trend lines.
If large scale famine were to breakout in Asia large shipments of grain from abroad would be required. The two most probable sources are the farms of North America, and what was the former Soviet Union. Neither is likely to be able to ship enough food to prevent huge losses of life. The reasons are that our transportation and distribution networks don't have the capacity, and there may not be enough surplus available to ride out a famine that could conceivably last for five years. Increasing agricultural yields in the region might reduce the danger, but only if population growth were to slow dramatically. Current concerns over the use of genetically altered foods reduces the risk of unintended negative effects, but also deduces our ability to produce enough food to feed the hungary if famine in China and/or India were to occur. The PRC policies to slow down population grown was at best only partially effective, and most would judge it to be a failure.
The sudden appearance of a disease that was easily communicated, with a two week incubation period, and that had a mortality rate of over 25% would be very serious indeed. In dense populations where the medical system is limited such a disease would have the highest mortality rate. Imagine the deaths of upwards of one fourth of the population in southern China. With modern air transportation, the disease could be in New York and London within a few days, and as many as one in five might die. And this is not the worst case scenario. Antibiotics are increasingly ineffective, and there may not be time enough to develop an effective vaccine if a very lethal disease were to suddenly appear.
I'm concerned that efforts to bring on-line alternative energy sources/production are not being pressed as strongly as they might. The introduction of hybrid powered automobiles throughout the world would buy us a little time. Automobile emission standards don't even exist in such crucial places as the PRC. Electrical power microwaved to earth from orbiting solar-powered satellites, it seems to me, might supply some of our electrical needs. That could reduce the use of coal, oil and natural gas for firing electrical generation plants. If fusion energy continues to elude us, we may have to bring more fission generation on-line. The time necessary to go from drawing board to power is measured in decades. Conservation would be nice, but in face of growing world demand for energy the best conservation plans founder.
0 Replies
BoGoWo
1
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Sun 3 Oct, 2004 08:58 am
as usual an extremely well thought out, stated, and inherently accurate contribution; Ash.
I am very much afraid that, as you state, we are at a point in our species' development that has been exhaustively researched in other species, especially 'rats' (the four legged kind);
the 'numerically induced density crisis'.
It seems the studies show that, as populations exceed the threshold applicable to the subject species, group dynamics shift in a series of negative ways - vulnerability to disease, social breakdown, mental instability causing catastrophic 'events' - all leading to a population crash, which in turn reduces the immediate stresses, allowing a certain 'special' - stronger, smarter, (i would insist simply "luckier") portion of the species to survive, and begin to rebuild (read - begin the population spiral over again).
Our species has one distinct advantage over other examples - should we choose to use it - ; we have brains that allow us to observe, record, assess, plan, and invent creative solutions to the problems we face as an overly successful species.
But we also are of 'animal origin' and typically regress to instinctive (traditional) measures on a visceral basis when threatened in any way (example G.W. B.), leading to an escalation of threats to our survival, rather than a solution to the immediate problem.
The biggest decision we are about to face, is that, as Ash points out we stand at the edge of numerous precipices, which will threaten huge bodies of population with extinction, frequently to a specific, often racially defined group.
Will we, and indeed 'can' we, and indeed 'should' we react to these threats in a prompt and effective manner, with the backing of the entire spectrum of 'stake holders' on this planet, in order to dispatch these threats one by one, meanwhile putting in place measures that will curtail such ominous threats from reoccurring?
We are currently 'lemmings' entering the season of 'flight';
The cliffs we are heading for are easily able to dash us to bits if we proceed to run headlong over them.
The only way i see to prevent the inevitable, is to "wake up" and discard the mindless hard wiring that drives us toward the 'fall';
territoriality, tradition, belief, competition, property, unbridled reproduction, "the survival of the 'meanest' !"
We must create our own 'final' mutation, without the aid of cosmic 'dice throwing' if we truly expect to survive.
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Terry
1
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Sun 3 Oct, 2004 09:44 am
Only cute furry animals deserve rights. Not snakes, spiders, flies, bacteria, or parasites of any kind.
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BoGoWo
1
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Sun 3 Oct, 2004 09:49 am
i can only agree when the conversation arrives at "mosquitoes, and black flies"; but most definitely NOT on spiders who are a source of much enjoyment, and support in ridding my environment of sundry other 'pests', for me.
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Asherman
1
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Sun 3 Oct, 2004 10:37 am
There has been a lot of research conducted since that population density study was done on rats back in Chicago(?). More recent studies with other species is that extreme population density and scarcity of resources actually reduces violent behavior and promotes cooperation. Human-kind is often at its best when confronted with a major crisis that threatens survival. Another one of those themes of science fiction is that as humanity faces extinction from X, a threat from outer space arrives and humanity "pulls together" and wins the day. Simple plots.
The thing is, most of us rarely can see beyond our own self-interest and the immediate future. In South America the rain forests are burning because poor farmers feel they must clear land to harvest sometimes only one, or two crops, to feed their starving families. Then they move on and destroy more precious resources that the whole world may depend upon. Its an old story and one that is acted out again and again by groups and by individuals. Its such a common tale that it is easy to become cynical. Optimism is overwhelmed by dread.
Folks need to step back and take a more balanced view of where we seem to be going. There is a pretty chart somewhere on the internet (i've seen it, but forgotten the site address) that charts violent human deaths (by the 100,000) by century back to our earliest known ancestors. Don't ask me where their data came from, because that's pretty problematical before our modern obsession with statistics. Anyway the trend line rises from near zero in the 13th century, and ending almost off the chart for the 20th century. Then we're asked to imagine extrapolating the number likely to die violently in the 21st century. For some folks thats a shocking forecast. However, the chart loses much of its appeal if we just think about it a little. The chart construction with the x going back perhaps a couple of million years crowds the intervals, and accentuates improperly the visual rise over the last seven hundred years. If the chart only depicted the 20th century (when much better datas is available) year by year, the trend line would be down. If we charted human populations, or almost anything, in a similar fashion to the one which scares folks so much, same rapid rise off the chart pattern/trend lines would emerge. For some reason, we humans seem to "get-off" on gloom and doom far more than on appreciation of opportunity and optimism that is just as likely.
I've listed four major threats to human-kind that have, I think, a pretty high probability of occurring within the next 10-20 years. That doesn't mean that one or more of them will actually happen, much less that the negative effects we believe would follow given current thinking would. Resource allocation and distribution is something that policy makers and planners need to think about. Improved economies built on sound foundations opens the doors of opportunity. The development of an interdependent world economy reduces the risk/threat to individual societies, and distribution networks improve all the time to service the global economy. Genetically altered crops to increase yield from exhausted and arid soil might save millions of lives, even if hundreds died of some potential side-effect.
Finding ways to slow population increases in places like the PRC, India and other Third World countries should be pursued and encouraged. Abortion is one alternative, and in light of the seriousness of the mortality rates shouldn't be taken off the table. Family planning almost didn't exist 100 years ago, now its a major effort and in the future may show dramatic shifts in the population trends of today. Shifting from agricultural production on small farms heavily dependant on human muscle, reduces the need and desire for large families.
Medical science hasn't stopped progressing, its just gotten much more expensive. The war for survival between us and the virus/bacteria will never be solved entirely, because we are to a large extend interdependent. New drugs and treatments are being pursued even as traditional anti-biotics lose their effectiveness. We are all more aware of how important Public health systems are, and they become better all the time. Several false alarms have awakened, I hope, the PRC to the necessity of closely monitoring emerging strains in Southeast China. Unlike the devastation of the Black Death and earlier epidemics with high mortality, today we can treat the threat more intelligently. Rapid identification of the threat, quarantine, and treatment can reduce deaths by a considerable number. To reduce the death rate from say 25% to 20% is very meaningful when applied to the large number of cases we might expect.
Improvements in the delivery of projected increased demand for energy are being worked on. Fusion remains outside our grasp, but I imagine that the problems will eventually be solved. Solar power (windmills, direct and secondary generation from solar panels, etc.) has great promise, but remains far too expensive to bring effectively on-line. Hydro-electric power might be increased somewhat in some locations. The dangers associated with atomic power plants (waste and accidental release of radio-activity) makes us wary. We rightfully worry about more atomic powerplants in parts of the world where safety precautions, design redundance, professional management, and the potential for producing more warheads are a factor.
In the worst case scenario ... back to science fiction ... human population might be reduced by up to 50% within one, or two generations. The herd will have been thinned and trimmed by Mother Nature. Local and regional wars might flare up to increase the death toll as one group fights another for survival. Some, perhaps many governments would lose control, and human organizations might fragment. Some networks might, even probably would go down for some time. World travel would be more difficult, and satellite communications might be lost. Some foods and goods that are now plentiful could become scarce in some locations. Technology, for a time, might be returned to about where it was at the beginning of the 20th century. Adjusting to the loss of technology would also result in the a certain number of deaths. The grand total deaths, could be between 50% and 75%. I lean toward the lower estimate
On the upside, the human population would put less strain on their environmental niche. Natural immunities coupled with fewer humans in more scattered locations would end a major epidemic. If famine were the primary killer, it would fade as the demand for food went down and the conditions that caused crop loss ended. Demand for most products would go down as the survivors converted legacy wealth to their own purposes. People die but their material goods continue to exist, and nothing has more enduring value than books. Recovery of technology would probably be pretty fast. Laboratories and factories of all kinds could beginning turning out new products almost immediately.
0 Replies
JLNobody
1
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Sun 3 Oct, 2004 02:05 pm
Yes, major catastrophes can have either negative or positive consequences, depending on one's frame of reference. Generally they have both.
0 Replies
cicerone imposter
1
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Sun 3 Oct, 2004 03:48 pm
I believe "both" is correct.
0 Replies
BoGoWo
1
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Sun 3 Oct, 2004 09:54 pm
Asherman wrote:
There has been a lot of research conducted since that population density study was done on rats back in Chicago(?). More recent studies with other species is that extreme population density and scarcity of resources actually reduces violent behavior and promotes cooperation. Human-kind is often at its best when confronted with a major crisis that threatens survival. Another one of those themes of science fiction is that as humanity faces extinction from X, a threat from outer space arrives and humanity "pulls together" and wins the day. Simple plots.
[i suppose this could one of the very few positive contributions of our 'large brains' (be that not overly optimistic!)]
The thing is, most of us rarely can see beyond our own self-interest and the immediate future. In South America the rain forests are burning because poor farmers feel they must clear land to harvest sometimes only one, or two crops, to feed their starving families. Then they move on and destroy more precious resources that the whole world may depend upon. Its an old story and one that is acted out again and again by groups and by individuals. Its such a common tale that it is easy to become cynical. Optimism is overwhelmed by dread.
[the 'immediate' frequently creates massive constraints for the 'future'!]
Folks need to step back and take a more balanced view of where we seem to be going. There is a pretty chart somewhere on the internet (i've seen it, but forgotten the site address) that charts violent human deaths (by the 100,000) by century back to our earliest known ancestors. Don't ask me where their data came from, because that's pretty problematical before our modern obsession with statistics. Anyway the trend line rises from near zero in the 13th century, and ending almost off the chart for the 20th century. Then we're asked to imagine extrapolating the number likely to die violently in the 21st century. For some folks thats a shocking forecast. However, the chart loses much of its appeal if we just think about it a little. The chart construction with the x going back perhaps a couple of million years crowds the intervals, and accentuates improperly the visual rise over the last seven hundred years. If the chart only depicted the 20th century (when much better datas is available) year by year, the trend line would be down. If we charted human populations, or almost anything, in a similar fashion to the one which scares folks so much, same rapid rise off the chart pattern/trend lines would emerge. For some reason, we humans seem to "get-off" on gloom and doom far more than on appreciation of opportunity and optimism that is just as likely.
[however, we are you must agree, now able to run that chart off the scale with a number of our current initiatives, and challenges.]
I've listed four major threats to human-kind that have, I think, a pretty high probability of occurring within the next 10-20 years. That doesn't mean that one or more of them will actually happen, much less that the negative effects we believe would follow given current thinking would. Resource allocation and distribution is something that policy makers and planners need to think about. Improved economies built on sound foundations opens the doors of opportunity. [only "share economics" will work] The development of an interdependent world economy reduces the risk/threat to individual societies, and distribution networks improve all the time to service the global economy. Genetically altered crops to increase yield from exhausted and arid soil might save millions of lives, even if hundreds died of some potential side-effect.[but the advantage is lost if 'all' die!]
Finding ways to slow population increases in places like the PRC [without placing that burden upon women], India and other Third World countries should be pursued and encouraged. Abortion is one alternative, and in light of the seriousness of the mortality rates shouldn't be taken off the table. Family planning almost didn't exist 100 years ago, now its a major effort and in the future may show dramatic shifts in the population trends of today. Shifting from agricultural production on small farms heavily dependant on human muscle, reduces the need and desire for large families. [it is however essential to eliminate religious 'medaling' in the 'ethics of birth control'!]
Medical science hasn't stopped progressing, its just gotten much more expensive. The war for survival between us and the virus/bacteria will never be solved entirely, because we are to a large extend interdependent. New drugs and treatments are being pursued even as traditional anti-biotics lose their effectiveness. We are all more aware of how important Public health systems are, and they become better all the time. Several false alarms have awakened, I hope, the PRC to the necessity of closely monitoring emerging strains in Southeast China. Unlike the devastation of the Black Death and earlier epidemics with high mortality, today we can treat the threat more intelligently. Rapid identification of the threat, quarantine, and treatment can reduce deaths by a considerable number. To reduce the death rate from say 25% to 20% is very meaningful when applied to the large number of cases we might expect. [but we need to find a mechanism for providing suitable medical treatment without economic involvement, to those potential victims who can least afford it.]
Improvements in the delivery of projected increased demand for energy are being worked on. Fusion remains outside our grasp, but I imagine that the problems will eventually be solved. Solar power (windmills, direct and secondary generation from solar panels, etc.) has great promise, but remains far too expensive to bring effectively on-line. Hydro-electric power might be increased somewhat in some locations. The dangers associated with atomic power plants (waste and accidental release of radio-activity) makes us wary. We rightfully worry about more atomic powerplants in parts of the world where safety precautions, design redundance, professional management, and the potential for producing more warheads are a factor.
[the 'future' of energy efficiency lies in 'transmission - a grid of supercooled underground cables would allow a world grid, minimizing production constraints.]
In the worst case scenario ... back to science fiction ... human population might be reduced by up to 50% within one, or two generations. The herd will have been thinned and trimmed by Mother Nature. Local and regional wars might flare up to increase the death toll as one group fights another for survival. [traditional war, strangely enough, while it provides a huge amount of suffering, and despair, is less productive of loss of life than plagues, drought, and the various 'genocides' that have taken place throughout history.]Some, perhaps many governments would lose control, and human organizations might fragment. Some networks might, even probably would go down for some time. World travel would be more difficult, and satellite communications might be lost. Some foods and goods that are now plentiful could become scarce in some locations. Technology, for a time, might be returned to about where it was at the beginning of the 20th century. Adjusting to the loss of technology would also result in the a certain number of deaths. The grand total deaths, could be between 50% and 75%. I lean toward the lower estimate
On the upside, the human population would put less strain on their environmental niche. Natural immunities coupled with fewer humans in more scattered locations would end a major epidemic. If famine were the primary killer, it would fade as the demand for food went down and the conditions that caused crop loss ended. Demand for most products would go down as the survivors converted legacy wealth to their own purposes. People die but their material goods continue to exist, and nothing has more enduring value than books. Recovery of technology would probably be pretty fast. Laboratories and factories of all kinds could beginning turning out new products almost immediately.
[but on the 'downside' we would be back to 'survival of the fittest" which got us to this point in the first place!! And will take us there again if we don't scrap the system!]