Did anyone notice Stephen Hawking contradicted himself?

@catbeasy,

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The issue is simple: to communicate or not and if you do, why and if no, then why not..

I would guess that God looks at mankind as we do a baby that we want to grow up. He hopes we learn to change our own diapers, start school, do neat stuff... We need less & less instruction all the time.

Yeah, simplistic. but if it explains something, why can't it be true?

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@maxdancona,

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Science is creating new things that Nature never imagined.

Now that's what I call "worshiping science". What do you mean science has created new things that nature never imagined? Can science create men? Can science create planets? The sun? The universe? That's just total baloney.

From what you've said so far obviously you are just BS'ing with the little science you know. I don't claim to know anything, but I know people who has Ph.Ds in chemistry or astrophysics who told me that even if the electrons orbiting neutron are off by a few nano-meters the atomic structure could break down. And that the little we know about the human brain and that modern medicine has barely scratch the surface of what we know about the human body. Did men create either of those?

I never deny modern medicine has cured disease and doubled human life, but as it stands there are much to be learned and discovered and true scientists have all told me that humbleness is the best quality in their field and arrogance leads to mistakes and dead ends. If you spent all your life researching a theory and turn out to be wrong, will you admit it? I don't see you doing that, but there are scientists who would when evidence shows them they are wrong.

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@Leadfoot,

It is not the 'simplistic' piece of it that I have issue with.

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God looks at mankind as we do a baby that we want to grow up

This is part of the problem. The biblical creator has endowed us with a certain (potential!) sense of what we consider mature thinking. My jury is out on exactly how much of that maturity we can gain without knowing some basic modern truths. At the very least I would say that perhaps we can achieve that maturity without our more modern understandings of where we live and the orienting of ourselves to that place in the universe. However, without our modern knowledge it might be more difficult to defend. Certainly there is value in modern knowledge in applying it to a defense of our maturity, even if we could defend our maturity without it..

And this is to say nothing about certain other cultures who apparently were much more mature (by our current standards) than much of our barbaric Western civilization (the California Indians for example).

There is no denying though, that that sense of (Western) maturity, our change in our social perceptions of ourselves and our relations to each other correlates very strongly with the advent of modern thinking and modern science has done much to buttress and indeed, inform that modern thought and hence maturity.

There are many examples and certainly they have not all been eradicated, but Rome wasn't built in a day. Slavery, punishment, sexuality, racism, women; these and many other things began to change with the advent of our Renaissance. The modern printing press was an exclamation point on that process as now that new thinking could be broadly disseminated - the first effect was people questioning others rule on them, other effects included a broad introduction to others' morals, mores, religions, - basically a mixing of ideas suggesting that maybe ones own views weren't the only (valid) game in town..

What is the point of all this? Well, I think the major take-away is that all this stuff started happening when we disengaged from religion. When Western people stopped looking at God as the official source of information . When we released ourselves from these autocratic religious shackles, we started that process you describe below, but it was a process that happened because we turned away from the biblical God... Not due to this God. Capable of reading for themselves, they were now able to see the contradictions posed by the Bible. God became less and less of an active actor in their lives, culminating in Deism (they still couldn't quite bring themselves to boot God out entirely - that wouldn't happen till Darwinism and modern physics).

Also, you have still not addressed this issue of why that God gives some instruction and not others. The biblical God seems very concerned about some things and not others. In fact, the minutia is incredible! Too much! That space could have been spent on telling us about our solar system! Why couldn't that fit into Genesis? It seems a perfect spot for it. And again, why not?

I don't see it like this God took us so far like we do a child and allowed us to grow in each other steps appropriate to our age. Its more like what was taught us was shallow, deep, and everything in between in a haphazard, slipshod, way. Those people of the past had our brains, they were perfectly capable out of the gate of understanding as we do.

Note that my argument is based on the understanding that this biblical God actually spoke to the people who wrote the Bible and those words were logged in that bible. If you want to say the Bible was not so created, then I think you have a better argument as to your evolving society.

1 Reply

@catbeasy,

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What is the point of all this? Well, I think the major take-away is that all this stuff started happening when we disengaged from religion.

Not that I give a **** about 'religion' (do we have to assume we just 'met' every post?) but breaking away from religion could well be part of the growing up process. In fact it was for me. Once again, religion != (not equal) to God.

As an aside, There is 'macro growing up' (mankind) and there is 'micro growing up' -(individual growth). Both are taking place and they are not directly linked. There were individuals who matured long before Western Civilization. There are Westerners who are still shitting in their diapers.

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When Western people stopped looking at God as the official source of information . When we released ourselves from these autocratic religious shackles, we started that process you describe below, but it was a process that happened because we turned away from the biblical God...

Over generalization gets us nowhere. And while there IS progress on the larger scale, I am primarily interested in the individual case.

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(they still couldn't quite bring themselves to boot God out entirely - that wouldn't happen till Darwinism and modern physics).

Well, some people did.

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Also, you have still not addressed this issue of why that God gives some instruction and not others.

We can not know who all he gives instruction to. That is known only to those he instructs. If the bible tells the truth, he is willing to give it to all who ask.

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The biblical God seems very concerned about some things and not others. In fact, the minutia is incredible! Too much! That space could have been spent on telling us about our solar system! Why couldn't that fit into Genesis? It seems a perfect spot for it. And again, why not?

As I pointed out before, on the macro scale, more detail was needed at the start, before we had science to teach us about bacteria, need for cleanliness, etc.

He is far more concerned about our growing up in the things he was most interested in - individual integrity, how we deal with each other, ethics, etc. Astronomy, physics, etc are all just the bell jar he runs the experiment in, it is of little importance to him and what he is trying to achieve here.

The science stuff would not be of much use to men, especially back in Genesis days. No satellites to launch, microprocessors to fabricate, etc. As Max's posts often show, it makes us feel good about figuring that stuff out ourselves. God's even happier when we figure out the really important stuff.

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@Leadfoot,

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do we have to assume we just 'met' every post?

Well, guess not, but I can be clinical in my writing..and sometimes there is a gap or non understanding or..whatever, where I am not sure exactly where you are coming from..like you with me...

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He is far more concerned about our growing up in the things he was most interested in - individual integrity, how we deal with each other, ethics, etc. Astronomy, physics, etc are all just the bell jar he runs the experiment in, it is of little importance to him and what he is trying to achieve here.

I think this is where I am not getting your point and what I'm trying to emphasize. Your God does care about these things.

1. The bible goes into great detail on the issues of cleanliness. Why not just go a step further and tell us the deal with the why of it. Those people were perfectly capable of understanding.
2. This God told us about all the animals, why not include bacteria? Though we didn't have satellites, we did have disease that WAS relevant to our lives. See #1 on cleanliness.

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We can not know who all he gives instruction to. That is known only to those he instructs. If the bible tells the truth, he is willing to give it to all who ask.

God works in mysterious ways. Don't like this argument because its not really an argument at all. This is tautistic, though not your fault.

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The science stuff would not be of much use to men, especially back in Genesis days. No satellites to launch, microprocessors to fabricate, etc. As Max's posts often show, it makes us feel good about figuring that stuff out ourselves. God's even happier when we figure out the really important stuff.

I don't see this as science. It is more about knowing where you live. Your home. Your place. The fact that it took scientific methods to figure it out is secondary. I would think your God would want you to know your place in the universe..

And again, regarding the above, many people died over this. It is important. In fact, the Greek religions made great hay about how special we must be and made all kinds of beliefs, religions philosophies - all pretty much centered on how the earth was the center of the universe/creation..

And the last thing, your beliefs are predicated on a book that dictates your religion. Many people want to disavow religion in favour of a 'relationship' with God. I have no issue with this if the bible is also disavowed. Yet that is where your info largely comes from. No one ever stumbled across these things post hoc..so the struggle is your spirituality coming from that book that is so dogmatic and religious. As I see it, you can't have it both ways..

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@catbeasy,

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Leadfoot Quote:
"He is far more concerned about our growing up in the things he was most interested in - individual integrity, how we deal with each other, ethics, etc. Astronomy, physics, etc are all just the bell jar he runs the experiment in, it is of little importance to him and what he is trying to achieve here. "

catbeasy replied:
I think this is where I am not getting your point and what I'm trying to emphasize. Your God does care about these things.

1. The bible goes into great detail on the issues of cleanliness. Why not just go a step further and tell us the deal with the why of it. Those people were perfectly capable of understanding.
2. This God told us about all the animals, why not include bacteria? Though we didn't have satellites, we did have disease that WAS relevant to our lives. See #1 on cleanliness.

The average modern citizen knows jack **** about bacteria beyond the word itself. Keep clean worked fine then and it still does. How would knowing the details of bacteria help them? And again, you are tossing out the value of figuring things out for ourselves. True in science and the rest too.

Leadfoot Quote:
"We can not know who all he gives instruction to. That is known only to those he instructs. If the bible tells the truth, he is willing to give it to all who ask."

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God works in mysterious ways. Don't like this argument because its not really an argument at all. This is tautistic, though not your fault.

I didn't say it was mysterious. Speaking for myself, it isn't mysterious to the one receiving the instruction.

Leadfoot Quote:
"The science stuff would not be of much use to men, especially back in Genesis days. No satellites to launch, microprocessors to fabricate, etc. As Max's posts often show, it makes us feel good about figuring that stuff out ourselves. God's even happier when we figure out the really important stuff. "

Catbeasy replied:

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I don't see this as science. It is more about knowing where you live. Your home. Your place. The fact that it took scientific methods to figure it out is secondary. I would think your God would want you to know your place in the universe..

Really? What would Moses make of it if God told him that the earth was in a mid sized spiral galaxy about midway out in one of the arms? Or that we are the third planet from the sun? What possible use would it be in learning the things I mentioned that he saw as far more important?

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And again, regarding the above, many people died over this. It is important. In fact, the Greek religions made great hay about how special we must be and made all kinds of beliefs, religions philosophies - all pretty much centered on how the earth was the center of the universe/creation..

Yes, many people focus on the wrong things at times. Greeks were no exception. But back to the important matters he wanted us to know -
Concerning our importance in the universe, so far it looks like we are the only ones in it. That could change but for now, that's what the evidence indicates.

As far as the bible, it says:
"For God so loved the world [mankind] that he gave his Only Begotten Son ..." That seems like we hold a very important place in the universe.

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And the last thing, your beliefs are predicated on a book that dictates your religion.

Remember me? This is Leadfoot, I don't have a religion.

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Many people want to disavow religion in favour of a 'relationship' with God. I have no issue with this if the bible is also disavowed. Yet that is where your info largely comes from. No one ever stumbled across these things post hoc..so the struggle is your spirituality coming from that book that is so dogmatic and religious. As I see it, you can't have it both ways..

It's hard to know whether you want to toss the bible out or keep it in the discussion. I can go either way but prefer to leave it out unless you bring it up. It seems most of your objections are based on the book.

For the record (again), virtually all my basic beliefs were arrived at before I picked up a bible. They were the result of deductive and inductive reasoning for the most part. A few were via divine revelation but you can disregard those if you like. I don't ask anyone to accept anything based on just my say so.

The reason I can't bring myself to throw out the bible is because of the amazing correlation between what I reasoned for myself and what I found in the book. Could be coincidence but that only goes so far. Just too many of them for that..

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@Leadfoot,

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The average modern citizen knows jack **** about bacteria beyond the word itself. Keep clean worked fine then and it still does. How would knowing the details of bacteria help them?

Really? You have to ask how it would have helped them?

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We can not know who all he gives instruction to

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I didn't say it was mysterious. Speaking for myself, it isn't mysterious to the one receiving the instruction.

That is mysterious. You are saying we cannot account for something with evidence.

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What would Moses make of it if God told him that the earth was in a mid sized spiral galaxy about midway out in one of the arms? Or that we are the third planet from the sun? What possible use would it be in learning the things I mentioned that he saw as far more important?

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Yes, many people focus on the wrong things at times. Greeks were no exception. But back to the important matters he wanted us to know -

One less thing for us to focus on. And yes, many many people focused on this for a long long time. You want to trivialize a point that past peoples seem to think was a huge deal. Enough to persecute thousands or millions of people over. Enough to be the driver, anchor, justification of many philosophical and religious ideals.

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"For God so loved the world [mankind] that he gave his Only Begotten Son ..."

God works in mysterious ways. There is no empirical evidence of this.

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It's hard to know whether you want to toss the bible out or keep it in the discussion. I can go either way but prefer to leave it out unless you bring it up. It seems most of your objections are based on the book.

Yes, that's right, all of my objections are based on the book. I have no objection to your personally believing in anything. It is the justification for doing so being beyond your own personal experience, extending into 'science' or believing that somehow the supernatural events in the bible achieve the title of 'evidence' (beyond your own experience) for God and the miraculous things included in the Bible.

I've said this before, that there is no way you stumble across these specific beliefs of the Bible. So, if you can throw out the Bible, I suppose I should ask what exactly are the religious or if you prefer, spiritual beliefs you espouse? It is difficult to believe that you can believe Jesus died for you without having read or heard of this. Do you believe this? And more important, if you do, do you believe that you reasoned or perhaps this was revealed to you prior to your having read the Bible?

Or do you take a more general view of God? There are many increments or branches of belief..

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@Leadfoot,

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I've said this before, that there is no way you stumble across these specific beliefs of the Bible.

As I said, I did not expect you to accept/believe it just because I said so. I can only tell you my experience and maybe you will seek it for yourself. No one can make you with either physical force or overwhelming evidence. That is very important to him for the reasons I've said before.

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So, if you can throw out the Bible, I suppose I should ask what exactly are the religious or if you prefer, spiritual beliefs you espouse?

Yes, thank you. I prefer the term spiritual beliefs.

I believe our existence can only be explained by an intelligence other than our own. I believe that being created us with the desire for companionship and that the environment we find ourselves in is the ideal way for him to achieve that goal. He does not want any of us to fail to figure this out but he is certainly willing to let us fail and accept a yield much lower than 100%. Being as he granted us this chance at life, I feel he is justified in that compromise.

The rest is just details.

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It is difficult to believe that you can believe Jesus died for you without having read or heard of this. Do you believe this? And more important, if you do, do you believe that you reasoned or perhaps this was revealed to you prior to your having read the Bible?

I'm sure it is, but Yes. Except that 'dying' refers to life here, not annihilation.

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@Leadfoot,

Sorry, still not getting it..

Do you:

A. Believe that you reasoned your way into the knowledge that Jesus died for you without ever having heard that that specific person died for you AND was necessary for biblical new testament salvation.
B. Do not believe that you reasoned your way into it, but it was revealed to you through special revelation?
Cheers!

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@Leadfoot,

I look at God as a baby that I want to see grow up.

The God in the Old Testament is pretty immature. He is jealous and vindictive. He is often a bully, at times cruel and sometimes brutal. We might be able to overlook the time he wiped out all of humanity just because they wouldn't listen to him. He ordered his human friend to kill his own son (only to say he was joking at the last minute). He gave people all these random rules for no good reason and orders that they be punished if they aren't followed..

Have you read the book of Job? God specifically allowed Job (who worshiped him) to suffer horrible illness and the death of all of his children just to satisfy a bar bet.

Humanity has grown to be far more decent, caring, fair and mature than the God of the Bible ever was.

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@catbeasy,

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Sorry, still not getting it..

Do you:

A. Believe that you reasoned your way into the knowledge that Jesus died for you without ever having heard that that specific person died for you AND was necessary for biblical new testament salvation.

B. Do not believe that you reasoned your way into it, but it was revealed to you through special revelation?
Cheers!

The reasoning part just got me interested enough to look.

His existence as the son of God was the divine revelation part. I did read stories of his time on earth sometime later in the bible. They seem consistent with the character of the revelation..

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@maxdancona,

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Humanity has grown to be far more decent, caring, fair and mature than the God of the Bible ever was.

As far as the parts you cited, that's what he was hoping.

Except for Job. I don't think you got the story.

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@Leadfoot,

Please explain why God allowed Job to be tormented (including suffering the loss of his kids). The story shows that he was just proving a point.

I think I get the story just fine. Do you want to explain something from the text that I am missing?

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@maxdancona,

First point is that if you take the 'God scenario' seriously, it was not a bar bet. It was foundational to his goal of finding the company he hoped to have.

I'm glad you understand the basic story of Job, many of the 'christians' I've met in churchs think it's a story of a man being taught about pride.

But It seems like you think that Job's situation is unique. It is not. Many people find themselves in similar or analogous situations. I think It is important that we not be blind sided in this life.

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@Leadfoot,

My point is that God, in the story of Job, is an uncaring jerk.

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@maxdancona,

See my first point.

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@Leadfoot,

So, there are quite a few questions surrounding this. What form did the revelation take? Was it that God had a son only? Was it that God had a son and the reason 'he' had a son was to save you? What form did that 'saving' take? Was it due to non revealed knowledge you had (before your revelation) that you were a sinner? Did you have this knowledge before hand that you were a sinner and so in need of saving? Or did the knowledge that you were a sinner and that there was a savior all sort of come at once in your revelation?

At some point after one of these revelations, you indicate you read about Jesus and assumed that he was the dude that fit your earlier revelation? Or do you deem that reading about Jesus and affixing him to your earlier revelation was another revelation?

Based on your saying that after reading about Jesus.."they seem consistent with the character of the revelation". I would assume the former? That it was more of an assumption, a reasonable correlation (in your mind) that Jesus was the person of your revelation?

Also, one other question, do you believe the Bible to be inerrant?

1 Reply

@catbeasy,

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So, there are quite a few questions surrounding this. What form did the revelation take? Was it that God had a son only?

I guess you could call it a vision. No words were spoken, all information was in the form of 'telepathy' or symbolism. It happened at night so it could written off as a dream but it had none of the characteristics of any dream I had before or since.

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Was it that God had a son and the reason 'he' had a son was to save you? What form did that 'saving' take? Was it due to non revealed knowledge you had (before your revelation) that you were a sinner? Did you have this knowledge before hand that you were a sinner and so in need of saving? Or did the knowledge that you were a sinner and that there was a savior all sort of come at once in your revelation?

If you've been given the impression that God has no needs/wants, it is not true. God had his only begotten son for one reason. He didn't want to be alone. It had nothing to do with me or anyone else here.

The whole 'sin' thing is so saturated with misconception this will be hard to give a meaningful answer. I was not aware of 'sin' or the need of being 'saved' at the time of my revelation. I did not understand the real nature of sin until shortly after that. First, sin is not breaking a list of rules.
I like to boil things down to their essence so that what is left is universally applicable. Sin in its essence is the denial of reality'. You have only a limited knowledge of reality when you start life but you are responsible for every bit of reality that you acquire along the way. Probably the first bit that anyone acquires is that it is not good to hurt others. If you know that and do it anyway, you've sinned.

'Saved' is as confused as sin. In my view, 'saving' means revealing the reality behind what or why something is sinful, hence all the references to 'being blind', 'seeing', etc. in the book. It is only after learning that reality that you realize what sinning means.

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At some point after one of these revelations, you indicate you read about Jesus and assumed that he was the dude that fit your earlier revelation? Or do you deem that reading about Jesus and affixing him to your earlier revelation was another revelation?

It was not specifically recognizing Jesus in the book as the one I 'met' that convinced me the book was genuine. Recognizing Jesus was later.
There was much more than encountering God's son in the revelation. The revelation confirmed many of the things I had reasoned out before. Those things were radically different than any religion (or anything else in society) teaches so my first reading of the bible was to see if it supported or refuted those things. I assumed it would not based on exposure to a few people who were religious. I was shocked to find out the book confirmed what I had reasoned out. In very large measure, religions either don't know or are lying about what is in the bible.

I know people interpret the bible in different ways, but if the book is valid, there should only be one way which makes it a coherent story. Being as objective as possible, other interpretations were contradictory and mine wasn't, so I accepted my own. I have not made an exhaustive study of the bible so I don't mean I've analyzed every verse.

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Based on your saying that after reading about Jesus.."they seem consistent with the character of the revelation". I would assume the former? That it was more of an assumption, a reasonable correlation (in your mind) that Jesus was the person of your revelation?

That too, but it was the correlation between 'the whole story' and what I had reasoned out before that caused me to accept the stories about Jesus to be about the being I encountered.

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Also, one other question, do you believe the Bible to be inerrant?

Depends on what you mean by 'inerrant'.

The 'plot of the story' is what's important. I haven't found any errors or contradictions in that so far, so in that sense, it is inerrant. There have been times in the past when I thought I did see some contradictions but I turned out to be wrong. That tends to increase my confidence in it.

That does not mean that any given verse in isolation is absolute truth. For example, Solomon wrote near the end of his life when he was embittered with society that there was not a single woman of integrity in his experience and that everything in this life was vanity. That is not literally true, but I get what he felt and meant. It supports the overall narrative of the book.

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@maxdancona,

Maddy appears to take every word in the bible for granted. Many people have asked me that how can a caring, loving and all righteous God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son, killing all the first sons of the Egyptians who wouldn't obey his command, killing everyone in the city of sodom and gomorrah, possibly including women and children, and of course, killing everyone in Noah's flood. Christians in many denominations are actually forbidden to read other scriptures, but I still do. It's not the words or stories that I follow, but rather the concepts and philosophies that are taught in each religion.

In the end I do not understand how someone can say the world is better off without religion. China bans all religion except activities that are "approved" by the government. Its schools teach atheism and labels all forms of "beliefs" as superstition. The many in the generation under Mao have no concepts of morality. Today if you are injured and lie in front of a hospital, no one will help you unless you pay, likely a price you can't afford. If you are an elderly and fall on the street, most will simply ignore and pretend to not have seen you. People only do things if the propaganda propels you to; very few are out of compassion. My wife was 5 month pregnant with our child and not a single hospital would help her with prenatal check ups, because she is not a resident of the city and she cannot register for "one child per couple verification" unless she return to her home city. Feel free to go there if you would like.

History is written by man, including the Bible itself. Today, many in China still believes that Mao is a good person who saved the Chinese people, which is obviously a lie. What Mao did was merely half a century ago and yet no one truly knows what exactly he did. People can't even get a piece of true history 50 years ago, let alone 2000 years ago. In the end to me, God is but a concept, an idea that I believe that cannot be disproved by science or logic.

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@maxdancona,

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My point is that God, in the story of Job, is an uncaring jerk.

What's funny is that this is precisely what Dean Winchester said to God when he showed up. Then he cried because he finally had hope, that he's not struggling alone. Maddie is kind like a baby who yearns for a sign that daddy still cares, but daddy doesn't respond so he rebels.

Speaking of which, you ever watch that show Lucifer? You 2 are awfully alike, that bitterness because you are disappointed.

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Did anyone notice Stephen Hawking contradicted himself?

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