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The Feminization of Man

 
 
Reply Mon 6 Sep, 2004 06:48 am
Disclaimer:
It is obvious that any differences between males and females are subtle and a matter of degree not of substance. Even sexual organs find their corresponding parts expressed in different manners in each of the sexes; a male penis can be found in women as a clitoris, a woman's ovaries found in males as testicles and so on. Whatever differences there are between males and females they are slight when compared to the vast similarities shared by belonging to the same species.
Despite this, the alterations in character and psychology caused by hormonal and genetic phenomena that differentiate males from females are enough to become discernable even to the fiercest advocate of human equality. A male nipple may be worthless to a man but a matter of grave importance to a woman.
Those of us acquainted with ?'Chaos Theory' are aware that even slight effects can have huge consequences when projected in time and space.
Furthermore the terms ?'female' and ?'male' are not restricted to strictly gender descriptions but will be used, here, as a state of being or becoming that may be used to describe both men and women. So it will be clear that there are men with female dispositions and women with male ones even though the majority of us will express the characteristics and psychological leanings of their own gender more often than not. [I am not only referring to homosexuality here but to a state of mind and a psychological type]
Many will accuse me of generalizing, for this is the favourite defence of those seeking to find an escape from insulting or hurtful premises they cannot contradict directly, but I will remind them that any exception to the rule only serves to prove the existence of a rule.
If it were not so then science itself would be impossible and specific studies would have to be conducted for each and every individual alive on any given time. There would have to be a science focused entirely on me, one on you and every category and label would be absurd and meaningless.
Yet general patterns and characteristics are what man uses to create knowledge and understanding. Through the general assessment of phenomena, and by keeping into consideration that they do not fully express the subtle degrees by which each diverges from the general rule and the overtly exceptional circumstances that sometimes lead to a complete non-adherence to a general law, man creates comprehension that benefit him by allowing him to construct strategies. Even exceptions to rules follow their own rules of exception and chaos and randomness may only be human prejudices caused by the incomprehensibility or complexity of the rules themselves.
But more than all this, the following critical analysis of man and woman in social contexts are based on my personal observations and deductions and will not be defended using popular beliefs, political-correctness, scientific studies, or any third-party sources even if this is also is possible. It is clear that one can find a study defending most perspectives making the studies themselves and the way they are conducted questionable.
Those dependants on the assessment of others, to create personal beliefs, inadvertently expose their weaknesses and limitations.
In areas where direct observation is impossible a reliance on second-hand accounts is understandable, but in areas where personal experience is possible and sensual awareness is feasible a personal assessment, is often, more preferable and constructive.
Philosophy isn't a mere repetition of past hypothesis or a reassessment of previous theories; it is an exchange of critical thoughts and personal analysis. It is normal to be guided and influenced by the work of others but to completely become dependant on them and to mimic or imitate them only reveals our own quality in comparison.
What follows is my perspective, based on my personal experiences and observations, using my senses and mental faculties.
Any similarities with those of others are coincidental or the effect of influence not of plagiarism.
Any contradiction of popular scientific or other common beliefs is understandable and irrelevant.
You cannot judge the accuracy of an idea by its popularity but by the strength of its argument, the supporting evidence and the ordered reasonable manner by which it is presented.
I will expect nobody to take my word for anything or to simply agree with me; I actually expect scepticism and personal supporting or contradicting observations to prove or disprove the precision of my opinions.
This entire following text is meant to promote free-thinking and personal intellectual effort and to encourage debate and individual awareness that may promote choices and free-will.
It is normal that the subject of males and females and of sex in general, is going to raise some controversy given the central role sexuality plays in human existence and given the popular sentiments of our western, ?'modern' world. But my intent is to insight thought and debate, not anger and self-hate.
When and if it does result in insecurity, fear, resentment and feelings of inadequacy it is unfortunate but natural, when considering the pitiful state of the human condition and our modern world of delusion and illusion.
To dismiss me as being a sexist, a male chauvinist or one suffering from some mental or psychological ailment or sexual dysfunction is to not deal with the subject at hand but on my apparent human imperfections upon which much speculation can be dedicated. But I remind you that by using this easy strategy of slander and insult any and every human idea can be dismissed since all human ideas are the products of imperfect human minds with imperfect psychologies and imperfect senses.
The only way to fight an idea is with another idea and before one deals with the human imperfections that lead to a supposed imperfect idea, the idea itself must first be shown to be wanting.
One must also keep in mind the constantly changing moral standards and popular beliefs that may make some ideas shocking in one time and in one culture and a matter of common sense in another time and culture.
One must also keep in mind that ?'modern' or ?'recent' or ?'future' or ?'popular' does not always mean better or superior. Evolution Theory has shown us that genetic alterations often answer to changing environments and make some mutations into advantages while making others disadvantages. The label of superior or inferior is dictated by the environmental demands of a specific time and place. Nevertheless mans still searches for transcending truths and superiorities to deal with the constant flux.
It is my hope that my own attempts to uncover myths and ailing ideologies should help in this search for power and purpose in a universe where man has neither.



Prologue
The levelling of man continues.
Centuries of social engineering and ?'civilization' have led to a type of human being unlike our ancestor and, still to this day, socialization persists to filter out all the ?'unwanted' human characteristics, altering, in this way, human nature and degenerating, in my opinion, the human spirit into indistinct oblivion.
There is no conspiracy here, no invisible entity directing things from the shadows. We might even say that the process is ?'natural' and the consequence of a normal social progression that started in the tribal unit and has resulted in the emergence of a huge socioeconomic machine, with its own logic and interest, assimilating, conforming, levelling and eradicating everything in its path. We might also say that this ?'natural' process has its roots in human physical disadvantage causing psychological insecurity that makes the cooperation of individual beings a forced necessity.
But this degradation of man, besides being a typical consequence of interdependence and socialization that demands a certain sacrificing of individuality for the sake of survival, has been exacerbated by the infiltration of slavish moral systems into a human psyche that has already been demoralized and undermined by extreme scepticism and mental fatigue, in the intellectual elites, and by interbreeding between a growing intellectual subclass and a continuously diluted intellectual upper-class that finds itself incapable to resist social and religious pressures and socioeconomic prerequisites.
A fundamental characteristic of weakness, as a concept, is its willingness to sacrifice a part of itself to save its entirety. Weakness is furthermore characterized by its inconspicuousness, its ability to blend and vanish into the multitude, its non-confrontational incorporation into more powerful entities, its expendability, its commonness, its malleability, its reliability and willingness [when conscious] to conform and adapt. The ?'If you can't beat them join them' strategy is one most often practiced in nature and in our universe; what cannot survive on its own inevitably either perishes or winds up as a part of something bigger and stronger, by means of consumption, via having its parts absorbed, or assimilation, via having its parts conformed. It is this transcending fundamental principle that is primarily responsible for the constant state of flux and fluidity, we experience as change and time, and which characterizes our state of being and our perspective of reality.
Man, as an isolated individual being outside any group, is certainly a weak creature when compared with other beasts, making his cooperation with others of his kind a requirement and his participation within unions of need, a matter of survival. But despite mans physical weaknesses he possesses the gift of intelligence, self-awareness and abstract thought that can lead to an alteration of environmental conditions and the revolutionary redefinition of what is weak and what is strong within them. This human ?'gift' that can take advantage of external resources, through the application of the imagination and the utilization of mans providential opposing thumbs, has produced the need for social units of vast scale and intricacy and has resulted in the added need for an adaptation to human environments that have replaced or surpassed the importance of natural ones. In addition to this, human psychological insecurity and physical frailty has imposed the need to armour mans feebleness with technological artifices that place a wall between man and his true spirit and distances man from himself and from nature entirely, by means of self-contained artificial systems.
This artificial ?'wall' is the source of mans current sense of separation and feeling of uneasiness that is expressed through the arts and through politics as the Demonization of technology and the machines we've created but that now we've come to serve. Machines and the machinery of modern social existence, in fact, function as our surrogate targets of hate, anxiety and fear in place of the real culprit of human enslavement: modern society, religion and culture, that engulf us in this unconscious, invisible matrix of artificiality and superficiality in order that we may serve its requirements by undermining our individuality, our personality and our uniqueness while, in true Orwellian newspeak, they claim to do the opposite. As this civilization engine grows its parts lose value by becoming expendable, disposable and reproducible and man becomes an insignificant wheel in a huge engine.
Like with all closed systems, a social system has its own methods and mechanisms by which it meets its needs and creates environments and participants that ensure its continuance and health. In doing so each system replaces or mutates past systems and refocuses and redefines their premises.
In human culture and civilization the struggle between the present and the past environmental demands upon the individual result in great psychological strain and in sometimes contradictory behaviours which is contained by the usage of intimidation tactics, such as religious dogma and the rule of law, or diverted and defused through educational institutions, the entertainment industry and political or theological ideologies.
By trying to replace or restrict the influence of past natural environmental affects upon man, by promoting human characteristics that are desirable and restricting those that are detrimental to the social or cultural group's premises, each system reshapes its parts into particular types, ideal for the given group's fitness.
We can witness this affect on human behaviour by studying the specific types created by different cultures throughout history and in how each utilizes or utilized sexuality, human nature and psychology through institutions and moral codes in similar manners but with distinctly different orientations and dissimilar results. All human cultures may use familiar methods for parallel reasons but each has a noticeably different motivation leading to diverging human ideals, guided by each cultures ethical standards and value systems inherited, through time, from ancestral backgrounds, historical experiences and philosophical/ideological pasts.
In cultures where paternalistic dominance is still prevalent, such as in the Middle-East and India [And only until recently in the west], social engineering is still controlled by males that are governed by their particular cultural perspectives and it is facilitated by the supremacy of religious dogma, by existing totalitarian political systems and by the subjugation of females to the cultures demands.
In the west, where centuries of world domination and due to its contamination by Judeo-Christian ethical systems and altruistic ideologies that were the product of a slavish resentment of all things superior and because of a general decadence caused by attrition and complacency, the paternalistic system has eroded enough to make equalitarian impoverishment and spiritual degradation possible.
Democracy is the result of weariness, caused by the constant conflict and uncertainty of previous political systems, and the natural consequence of population explosions that enabled individuals, of questionable quality, to unite and achieve political relevance through the strength of numbers; it is also the expected result of increasing demands for resources, caused by a prospering civilization, shrinking spaces and a human psychological predisposition for peace and stability.
This social circumstance, caused paradoxically by the very natural tendencies that eventually become dangerous and unwanted {survival, dominance, control, violence, selfishness, arrogance, procreation, power; all sexual male drives} unleashed upon the world by the unburdening of the human mind from matters of immediate survival through prosperity and from primitive religious myths and superstitions through intellectual enlightenment, lead to a western world dominion that exponentially increased populations and the accompanying need for resources and made it necessary to then suppress these very same instinctive drives in order to maintain stability and social harmony.
This trend towards larger and more malleable populations, existing within smaller spaces and dwindling resources, has made equalitarian, servile moralities essential and vital.
The more complacent, unaware and gullible a population is the more governable and controllable it becomes. It is therefore understandable why unsettling ideas must be quarantined and eradicated, why free thought must be restricted and why defiance and uniqueness must be controlled and punished as an example to be avoided before it becomes one to be emulated.
In our modern western world this dummying-up of the masses has resulted in populations that, despite their relative affluence, learning access and general prosperity, display the apathy, ignorance and naïveté of the less fortunate in third-world countries.
The complete indoctrination of man into artificial [manmade] environments, sometimes demanding behaviours contrary to more primitive natural ones, has moreover been facilitated by the gradual diminution of man through unnatural sexual selection, re-education and the slow eradication of the, before mentioned, human characteristics that made man a natural dominator and a survivor in a threatening universe.
It is derisive that the very intellectual superiority that resulted in human dominion is also contemporary society's greatest foe, that must be controlled and even narrowed, and the very male spiritual attitude that knelt to no natural demand and accepted no holy authority is now to be atrophied and warped.
In the west socialization, population control and mind manipulation has taken a distinguishing subtle, subliminal and indirect approach, to maintain the illusion of free-will and individuality, upon which all of western culture is based, and unlike the more direct and obvious controlling practices in other cultures, it is more difficult to always perceive where and how we have been manipulated into thinking and behaving in certain ways. For many the current state of affairs, in the western world, is taken to be the epitome of human achievement, the height of human development and the worthy successor of a cultural revolution that began on the rocky Aegean shores of ancient Greece and has reached for the distant Martian plateaus in our time, but they neglect to consider the true spirit of this ancient stance towards life and only judge it from its superficial constructs and external facades. The Hellenic spiritual revolution, which we now call western civilization, was not an external one where great monuments are built in the Egyptian style or where man is judged by his external creations [Although even this is a part of it, it is not the goal] or his discipline to greater forces, the true spirit of western thought was in how it perceived the individual, mans place in the universe and in how it judged mans value and potential.
Evidence of how western ideals have been mutated and subverted through time is in how we at present perceive the world around us and from where we accept our own self-worth and meaning.
For instance, many of us in the west, influenced by marketing practices from an early age, find it obvious that certain product name-brands are associated with a particular ideal and that the acquisition of certain material products and the image constructed to go along with them, is of the utmost importance and relevance and the means by which we advertise and express our own self-worth and quality to the world. Owning a BMW or a Mercedes or a Versace or a Rolex, is how we exhibit our social status, as capable consumers, and attract others, especially females, to our genetic potency dictated, in this case, not by natural symbolism but by a socioeconomic one, we have been sold on, and guided by an ideal, we have accepted as our highest. The quality of the products we own and consume must supposedly symbolize our personal quality, whether it is present or not.
But why these particular products of human ingenuity, no different than many others, are associated with a specific image and why, is for most of us unrecognizable and just a matter of ?'common sense' that is mostly undisputed. Yet here we can find evidence of how we have been manipulated into believing that mercantile quality is equal or a fair substitute for substantive quality and external objects can fill in for an inner void.
The current popularity of spirituality and the rediscovery of past spiritualism, particularly amongst urban populations where the distance between man and nature is the greatest and where the fruits of mans labour are mostly of an impersonal nature, is a symptom of this systematic, capitalistic redefinition of value and self-worth that serves the socioeconomic system by forcing a continuing striving for materialistic acquisitions, which in-turn drives modern economies, and maintains a constant state of tentative hopefulness for material wealth, that is supposed to be the ultimate answer to boredom, meaninglessness and misery, and keeps the masses working and dreaming despite the odds being stacked against them and the overall interests of the system itself to preserve the status quo of class disparity.
Most of us do not question the ideals of our chosen value system but only discipline ourselves to its premises and, in true female fashion, we become simple mirrors of the world around us.
Material wealth, that was meant to symbolize the quality of an individual by his access to resources in a natural system, has now come to symbolize, not only the physical or mental excellence that leads to abundance but the total obedience and compliance of said individual to a larger whole that is rewarded with superficial riches for his/her submission.
In a system where materialism prevails, consumerism reigns and where the preservation of already acquired status is desired, wealth is most often inherited than earned and when earned it is frequently at the price of an entire lifetimes toil making the enjoyment of the consequent privileges, once again, a matter of heritage for later generations that can never fully appreciate what they themselves have not earned and therefore do not deserve.
Here we can also find the causes for the current generational gap and the roots of this recent pampered undisciplined naiveté and unmerited over-expectation of western urban youths that has resulted in them not respecting or valuing anything, including their very selves.
This obsession with materialism, particularly in the west, has come at the expense of all other human endeavours and, serving the demands of a particular system, has resulted in a loss of human identity, spirituality and natural interconnectedness. We no longer relate to each other as thinking, feeling human beings connected with all of creation intimately but we relate to each other as consuming owners, protective maintainers of that which we own and covet and egotistical misers that take the things that they buy to be what defines them as individual human beings.
The very concept of possession, that results in affluence and privilege and through which all modern civilization is made possible, is based upon a myth, the myth of ownership. In nature there is no real ownership, not even life is truly owned by an individual but is only ?'leased', metaphorically speaking, and temporarily enjoyed. In the end all must be returned to the primordial ?'soup' from which new creations will spring forth and new unions will take place. Reality is a work in progress with no final destination making the very idea of ownership a ridiculous farce.
Like all manmade concepts it, ownership, suffers from the desire to usurp natural rules, for practical and psychological reasons, and so requires a remoulding of human nature.
Man is forced to redefine his place in the universe in order to overcome his physical and mental weaknesses by taking advantage of the power of numbers, and in so doing loses the intimacy and interconnectedness of existing according to his true individual spirit.
Modern man has lost his/her pride in himself and in his/her true nature and, now, substitutes the cavernous emptiness in his/her soul with matter of dubious certainty, titles and affairs of outer origin and thusly forever detaches personal value from the self. Even the personal names man associates himself with become a generic stamp shared by many that possess no intimate relation to personal becoming; Tom, Dick and Harry just non-specific labels of non-distinctness that can be easily replaced by a simple number representing a statistic; Mary, Susan and Helen names saying nothing about the individual besides her participation within a particular cultural and religious group.
[Family names although more unique and specific suffer from the same impersonality since they merely reveal an individuals cultural, religious, national heritage, never chosen but imposed, and a genetic bloodline but say little more about the actual person they supposedly label]
Modern man is more likely to find self-worth and self-importance in external sources than internal ones as he desperately seeks for a connection with his real nature and searches for evidence of his real identity. This, in my view, is due to the steady decline of man as an individual personality, which makes it obligatory to substitute personal quality with an adopted external façade of quality that can be shared by multiple individuals who inevitably begin thinking and behaving in imitation of each other. We call this pop-culture in North-America.
The methods by which man is shaped and sculpted in social environments contain natural instinctive drives and manmade imaginative institutional inventions that either take advantage of aforesaid drives or totally subvert and suppress them.
One of these human inclinations, that are blatantly manipulated, is the sexual instinct.
The fundamental human compulsion is to mate and to procreate. This biological standard of personal success is still in man, despite his self-asserted evolution beyond primitiveness, the major source of acquiring his self-meaning. It is also the means by which the natural system, the original system of human emergence, has controlled and shaped our behaviours in the past and still maintains a dominant grip on our psyche in the present.
Because of this, sexuality is the major motivating factor behind all human actions and creations. We may say that mankind is obsessed with sex and procreation because mankind is constantly preoccupied by his own mortality, making life merely a constant struggle against death.
Sex is the central focus of all individual thought, whether we know it or not, and it plays an important part in how man is guided and moulded, not only by nature, but by culture and civilization that now uses and mutates it to its advantage.
In this game of sexuality, played by mortal beings, the basic participants of male and female archetypes [Keeping in mind that there might be other gender types in our universe] are elemental and worth analysing further, for it is through this interrelation and ?'dance' of sexuality that man comes to be and his quality and nature is determined.


Female Archetype
To say that women are the weaker sex is to not do justice to their entire natural role and it ignores the true power women possess within social groups where, like all individual weakness, it procures strength through numbers and finds safety in groups.
In fact a woman's place within a social group is a privileged one, as we will see further on, and it has been mans intervention and imposition of authoritarian, paternalistic socio-political systems that has stripped women of the full extent of their power, as expressed through female sexual choice and the feminine unobtrusive mirroring of cultural norms, by subjugating them to cultural and religious dogmas that inhibit natural mechanisms and corrupts human instincts.
Left to her natural devises, a woman plays the part of genetic ?'gatekeeper' and social ?'filter' that propagates the ideals and values of a group and weeds out unwanted physical, mental, social, cultural, religious or psychological traits.
In natural environments women's sexual choices are guided by natural motivations, in social/economic/cultural/religious environments a woman's sexual choice is further complicated by other considerations that battle with the pre-existing natural ones for domination.
Through a woman's choice, and how this choice is focused and determined by natural inclinations and social upbringings, a woman acts as an instrument of selectivity that dictates the future of mankind and his destiny.
This ?'gatekeeper, ?'filter' role is made possible by the female's two basic characteristics:
Social Dependence
A woman is nothing outside a group. Her entire self-worth and value is derived through her participation and her position within a group; her entire self-worth is derived by how desirable and appealing she becomes to the opposite sex and, as a consequence, in how she becomes a willing and capable social and cultural tool. She finds purpose in how effectively she can be used as an instrument and a means to an end.
As such her power is achieved in how well she understands, manipulates, is assimilated, conforms and reflects the morals, values and virtues of the group she participates in and in how close to a physical aesthetic ideal she reaches that exposes her fertility and genetic history.
A woman, in essence, has no real individuality but plays any part she deems is attractive and necessary to achieve her goal of belonging and reproducing.
It is noteworthy that in marital unions it is mostly the woman that is asked to change families, adopt a new clan and the name that goes along with it or is forced to change her religious and cultural life and rarely is it the man that is expected to do so unless he has been sufficiently emasculated and deprived of his unique identity and personality.
Unlike a man, a woman does not fully carry the tag of her genetic history but can be traded and swapped between different clans or tribes or cultures like a valuable commodity; a practice she submits to, willingly and easily due to her temperament.
A man, reversely, is forever associated with his original national, racial, tribal or cultural identity and is forever a representative of his creed since he can only function as a reproducer of his own kind.
A female is a social chameleon that mirrors the colors of her surroundings and blends into the background with little or no distinctive quality. In fact, her success is determined by how thoroughly she takes on the characteristics of the ideal female role of her immediate environment and in how successfully she reproduces the ideals and ideas of her group.
In this willingness to accept unquestioningly and completely any dominant power and finding in her ?'belonging' her highest achievement, women become the tools of indoctrination and genetic engineering.
Sexual Selection
A woman possesses the most valuable and desirable part of an ephemeral human existence; she produces and controls the human ovum which ensures and directs the propagation of the species and decides its destiny.
Where men can produce billions of sperm in a lifetime and impregnate thousands of women, women produce, in comparison, a scant amount of eggs and can only gestate a minimal amount of offspring in the course of a lifetime.
Through her sexual selectivity she ensures the continuance of specific traits and characteristics while it condemns others to eventual extinction. In her mind a woman believes she is making a logical, free-willed choice based on well thought out reasons and/or personal tastes, when she chooses a mate; in fact she is merely following her genetic drive, her instinctive motivations and her cultures prejudiced virtues.
It is this female ovum that males fight to control and to inseminate and through this control to ensure their own continuance. This is one of the fundamental principles of evolutionary mechanics.
It is therefore a woman's aesthetic appeal that reveals her physical health, her fertility and her mental faculties to bear and raise capable, fit offspring. It is this physical appeal that men find irresistible and makes their devotion and sacrifices towards women possible, it is also through this physical appeal and the ends to which men will go to acquire access to a healthy ovum, that women achieve their highest power through and the means by which they manage to control men of often higher metal and physical strength than themselves.
These two female ?'powers', if left unhindered by male intervention elevate women to a privileged position of social strength as a valuable ?'asset'.
The female propensity to willingly and completely adopt the value systems she finds herself in and in her overall control over who she will be impregnated by makes her a ?'custodian' of social conformity and a tool of genetic manipulation.
But a woman's choice isn't as easy as it first may appear. If she isn't a part of a culture where her choice is taken away or restricted by male dominance, she is further troubled by two forces battling over her attentions:
1}Intellectually, and if sufficiently indoctrinated within a cultural framework, she is pulled to the socially acceptable and upwardly mobile male who, like her, has adopted and completely conformed to the social/cultural/religious norm and by doing this has ensured his social success giving him access to resources restricted to the lawful and socially disciplined.
These resources are essential for women that are forced to live through a long gestation period, making them more helpless than they would normally be, and a following infant maturation process that takes decades and capital to be considered a success.
2}Physically and instinctually she is still bound to her genetic predispositions and still instinctually attracted to the archetypical male ideal, who through his natural inclinations may appear violent, vulgar, arrogant, proud, confrontational, and unyielding when judged according to our ?'modern' standards but valuable within smaller groups where individual traits become more decisive, when compared to the more effeminate, docile, socially indoctrinated, tolerant and passive ?'modern' male, that is most valued within larger populations where individual traits and talents are less decisive.
In many species the male has been completely eradicated from the social group and only plays a provisional role of inseminator; then being destroyed to preserve the more controllable, submissive, female, maternal, socially stable environment [Ants, bees, termites, wasps etc.]. Interesting also that where female dominance reigns, such as in the before mentioned species, an absence of individual personality and instinctive mindlessness is the prevailing characteristic.
The previously mentioned two female sexual considerations are what play a part in the misunderstanding and incomprehensibility of women to the average male that cannot reconcile what women say and what they often do in contradiction to what they say. It is the cause of this supposed female ?'mystique' caused also by a general male indifference, as to the inner workings of a female mind that gives women an advantage considering their insatiable appetite for the inner workings of a males mind.
A woman's superiority can be found in how she establishes and maintains relationships and in her practical application of knowledge and experiences.
It isn't, so much, that women are smarter than men when it comes to psychology and social relationships but that they devote more of their brainpower and time to these concerns. It is for this reason that females develop faster and acquire better communication skills early on. The quickness by which she reaches child-bearing maturity makes her relevant and her skill in linguistic expression and understanding allows her to evaluate the underlying social mechanics and her methods of adapting to them which establishes her position and social value.
But the total devotion of a female mind to the immediately perceptible and practical gives them an added advantage in social matters. A woman is subconsciously adept in understanding body language and in interpreting psychological states through the perception of external details and subliminal messages. They call this: ?'woman's intuition'.
She is always a step ahead of males in picking up and interpreting the minutiae of physical information, freely given off by all of us, that are needed by her to read personalities, qualities and interpersonal relationships and power struggles. Her total commitment to appearances also makes her superficial and completely uninterested or unaware of abstract concepts or underlying realities.

Male Archetype
A man's role within a social group is a more precarious one.
He is both expendable and an intrinsic part of the health of the whole; he can be a definer of what it means to be human or be a mere failed attempt at it; he can be the determiner of greatness or a symbol of degradation; he can be a leader and guider of a group or relegated to a peripheral role; he can be the goal or the error.
The demands upon the male intellect, because of the afore mentioned, are greater than in females; he must be flexible and stringent, disciplined and free-willed, strong and compassionate, proud and humble in a balance dictated by the form of the group he wishes to become a successful, respected leader of and the environment he is forced to exist within.
A mans mind is divided between the necessary perception of appearances and the need to find advantage by evaluating and perceiving the non-perceptible, through the abstract.
If a woman is the buyer of genetic potential then a man is inevitably the seller and as such possesses the creativity, imagination, mental flexibility and abstract thinking of one that must consistently prove his value to the whole in order to ensure his relevance and importance.
But these necessary characteristics of a successful male are also the source of his natural domination and the eventual control over the forces of nature that resulted in the restriction of female sexual power and made women servants to male reason.
For males women are only a means to an end and hold no interest to them beyond this, a fact many women use to their advantage, if they recognize it as such.
A mans natural inclination is to inseminate as many females as he possibly can and then guide them and his offspring with his strength and power into copies of himself; modern day practices of man as caretaker and homemaker is the direct result of mans feminization where he has submitted to authorities more powerful than himself and accepted a certain mode of behaviour that is expected from him while contradictory to his inclinations.
The male type is governed by his need to control, to possess, and to be independent and self-reliant; he is a natural sceptic and adversary of all that binds him, restricts him or attempts to dominate him. It is this unyielding, courageous male attitude that has lead to human dominion over nature and to mankind's unquestionable success and has opened up frontiers for human exploitation. Ironically it is also this success that has made maleness expendable and unwanted within growing social systems where a more disciplinable, humble, demure, malleable type is more desirable.
Where there is uncertainty and fear, males become intrinsic, where there is safety and predictability males become detrimental to harmony and uniformity. Where there are un-chartered frontiers and unconquered worlds, men become vital, where there is un-inquisitiveness and limitations imposed upon human action and thought, men become dangerous and obtrusive.
Unlike women, men are not just born into value and importance by just being a member of their gender but must earn any respect and privilege or perish in the effort. It is this that drives men to higher and higher levels of mental and physical perfection and has stretched human existence to such an extent that it now threatens to separate him from his roots and through this stretching has thinned out his spirit.
It is this creativity that is harnessed by ?'modern' societies by making all men investors in them by allowing them to procreate. An accomplishment achieved, by the way, by the subjugation of women.
Man himself is responsible for the condition of his species, since women will go along with any moral or spiritual decision that dominates the minds of men, and because of this he becomes the creator of his own demise.
Is the male archetype a primitive expression of the human condition destined to become extinct or marginalized? That remains to be seen, but one thing is for certain, where maleness is extinguished so is the spark of individuality, creativity, personality and un-harnessed potentiality.


Sexual Attraction
The game of sexual attraction is an intricate dance of flirtation and insinuation that hides a deeper practical motivation.
Steven W. Gangstad PhD said on the matter
"Flirting is a negotiation process that takes place after there has been initial attraction."
For women the ?'game' of sexual attraction has additional complications and considerations; for her the implications and consequences of a sexual relationship will have far reaching results for her and her progeny that makes her decision making a more complicated one.
Her natural instinctive inclinations, as I've already stated, attract her to the archetypical male. The physical and mental strength that will be inherited, through her, by her offspring, makes these natural attributes precious and irresistible to her. But the further consideration of being impregnated by a male with access to material resources, that will make her long gestation comfortable and the following years of infant rearing successful, is essential to a female's choice.
In natural environments the physical and mental prowess of a male went hand-in-hand with his resourcefulness and his access to the essentials whereas in our modern world this is rarely the case.
In a ?'modern' social environment access to resources and material wealth is mostly accessible to males of a conforming predisposition that have been assimilated within the cultural frameworks and adopted the ideals and values of their environment. This ?'female' predisposition has enabled most males to pay the precious price [time and effort] of social ascension to reach goals given to them by external sources without question or hesitation and has facilitated their assimilation and subjugation to a stronger entity [that of society] as women do. This is more evident in crucial position of social status such as political posts or positions through which information and therefore indoctrination is disseminated, such as the media. Here we can see the promotion of individuals that more closely mirror the ideology of the governing elite or the morality and value systems of the power centers acquiring quick access to positions of power and influence and rewarded with affluence and privilege as a consequence, whereas those diverging from the status quo or exhibiting any free-thought are conspicuously left behind, eradicated or ignored.
Furthermore, the demands of social progression exact such a high price on the individual male as to make any dedication to physical and mental development, impossible or rare. Men and women are so stressed and occupied with daily concerns of economic survival, consumerism and economic ascension that the ?'self', the only thing that truly matters, is neglected.
In modern social environments where physicality and intellectual power is not as relevant to survival and where, inversely, it is a female psychology and easy indoctrination that enables success, the sexual choice demanded from women is made even more difficult.
Her femaleness is still fascinated by maleness and all the attributes that go along with it but from a practical point of view, she must take into consideration her mates social status, wealth and conventionality as to ensure the well-being of her future offspring.
A further aspect of the sexual attraction game that sheds some light on how female choice is made and what romantic love is many times based on, is, what I call, the ?'bad-boy' factor.
The ?'Bad-Boy' Factor
It is well known that confidence is a very attractive attribute, especially for males, but few really comprehend why this is so.
The founding principle of confidence is indifference to specific particulars and a poise derived by the certainty that eventual success is attainable in the general.
For example, when attempting to find a job confidence is derived by the self-assurance that a job will be found eventually despite any particular, specific failures, whereas non-confidence is based on the desperation of being dependant on the acquisition of a single, particular job position which becomes exaggerated in significance. This confidence, in turn, gets translated to physical composure, mental focus and efficiency of movement which desperation, through panic and anxiety, lacks.
That confidence rests on a foundation of indifference may be a difficult concept to accept, especially in matters of sexual intimacy where ?'love', ?'compassion', ?'trust' ?'respect' and ?'dependence' are considered to be the romantic ideal, but nevertheless I believe evidence abounds as to its veracity. The ?'bad-boy' factor is a case in point.
It is evident, to all that understand the characteristics of the ?'bad-boy', that the brash, swaggering and often abusive confidence, that makes them irresistible to females, is rooted in a general indifference caused by an overabundance of sexual options. For certain men, that can have their pick of women, the specific individual woman becomes irrelevant, making them confident and arrogant enough to display their true male character and individual personality with little regard as to the consequences.
Confidence and independence also expresses an abundance of choice caused by access to superfluous resources that makes a specific supply of marginal importance.
For females, that are genetically predisposed to seek out resources and genetic health, this aspect of maleness becomes attractive because it also reveals a males marketability and desirability. When a male has multiple sexual options then he must be an asset worth considering, when he has limited choices then his obsession with a particular female, far from remaining flattering, becomes unattractive and even repulsive.
This will also explain the phenomenon of adultery where males that are married or attached somehow become more attractive to females just because they are taken by other females and it sheds some light into the phenomenon where women remain in often abusive relationships.
It is ironic that women find men attractive that are relatively indifferent to them specifically and find men unappealing that are infatuated with them specifically [The ?'nice' guy they want to remain friends with].
It is also noteworthy, that in a more general application of the indifference rule, that we become more successful in the things we do not really need, desire or obsess over and less so in the things we badly yearn for. Life itself, when the matter of death is overcome and a general indifference to mortality is achieved, becomes more enjoyable and rewarding but when we frantically deny death and find clever ways to ensure immortality through religion, we display the desperation and anxious strain that restricts life and limits our existence.
To ?'not care' does not mean to ?'not value' but it does mean to be ?'independent from'. This independence displays itself in confidence, pride, self-reliance and contentment that others will perceive intuitively, and wishing to share in it, will be inevitably attracted to.

Epilogue
Given, the before mentioned gender archetypes, it is relatively clear that the ?'perfect' type for social participation is the feminine one. The female, with her instinctual need to belong and to maintain cohesion and harmony, with her complete reliance on external reflections for self-realization and her willing and total adaptation to shared ideals and ideas, makes her the ideal type for large social environments such as found in modern civilizations and nation-states.
The male, on the other hand, with his independent, uncompromising individuality, rebelliousness, imaginative creativity and prideful psychology makes him more ideal for smaller social groups where individual personality and distinctiveness plays a more important role in group survival.
It is therefore not surprising that distinctly female traits are idolized and the human mind is inseminated with the female ideal in our present day world of mounting populations and diminishing resources.
Where peace and stability are of the utmost importance, being female or ?'feminine' is an obvious advantage.
But beyond this social influence and cultural prejudiced leanings, women as sexually selective powers become the guarantors that the socially acceptable human characteristics that are rewarded with privileged positions of social status, will also be rewarded by their reproduction in future generations by selecting males that exhibit the right mixture of female and male predispositions, even if instinctively and physically they are still more attracted to the more ?'primitive' male archetype.
The gradual extinction of the male started in the human species when human physical weakness forced man to evolve social sensitivities in order to improve survival odds. It was later speeded up through genetic degradation which resulted in fatigue and a psychological ineptness to accept nature, and her cruel ways, as the order of things, leading to a general disillusionment with life and existence, as expressed through nihilistic religions in the east and in philosophical nihilism in the west.
Socrates was the first, well known, victim of this trend and the culminating focal point of Hellenic degradation. The final blow was struck when the western body, weakened by centuries of decadence and comfort [due to unforeseen success] was eventually infected with the moral/ethical systems of a people condemned, by history and chance, to be outcasts and the slaves of more powerful civilizations. The attraction to this slavish moral system to the unfortunate growing masses of the underprivileged, multiplying consistently due to mans survival superiority, domination over nature and past spiritual nobility, is understandable. Along with it came equalitarianism, complacency and uniformity caused by the numerical superiority of the weak and the intellectual and spiritual fatigue of the strong caused, in turn, by the unceasing struggle and the stifling effects of exaggerated intellectual scepticism.
In more recent times, in the west, with the emancipation of women, the role of maleness and manhood has been further diminished. We see signs of a western hermaphroditization in the changing aesthetic male ideal physical form as promoted by popular culture. The slim build and the adolescent, almost girlish, look, the hairless torso all reveal the feminization of manhood; the emergence of homosexuality, once a source of social stigmatization, as a viable life choice alternative, a cute, amusing quirk of nature awaiting its own emancipation also reveals the feminization of man and the drift to his eventual extinction. In nature any display of homosexuality is one of dominance and not of affection or sexual attraction. Many have taken this natural display of authority as evidence for the ?'normalcy' of homoeroticism.
We must remember that nature is efficient and nothing exists without a purpose, or else it atrophies and disappears like the human appendix or a muscle that is never used. It is then perplexing why homosexuality would exist in nature, since it has no purpose and the act of sexual interaction, existing to facilitate propagation, would be practiced between members of the same gender.
In truth homosexuality is a distinctly human mutation and an extreme result of human male degradation.
Female emancipation that resulted in the flattening of gender differences is now followed by a drive towards homosexual emancipation, where male/female distinction will be further eroded making gender roles and gender divisions of no relevance.
Mankind is on the road to a hermaphroditic existence where procreation will be conducted in test-tubes and sex will become a matter of entertainment with little spiritual or procreative significance.
The levelling of man continues.

October, 2003-10-20
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 5,391 • Replies: 56
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gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Sep, 2004 06:56 am
Pay no attention to me. I'm just poking around the various threads, searching for my bra and panties.

Nope, not here.

Carry on.
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Sep, 2004 07:09 am
I have a 'hard' time trusting a PhD with 'Gangsta' in his name. It's just a quick step to 'D Gangsta' isn't it? I'm guessing you copy and pasted this from your files, but some paragraphing might make it easier for people to read.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Sep, 2004 07:25 am
Re: The Feminization of Man
Wanderer wrote:

Despite this, the alterations in character and psychology caused by hormonal and genetic phenomena that differentiate males from females are enough to become discernable even to the fiercest advocate of human equality. A male nipple may be worthless to a man but a matter of grave importance to a woman.
Those of us acquainted with ?'Chaos Theory' are aware that even slight effects can have huge consequences when projected in time and space.


Care to explain the illogical segue*?

*Fallacy: non sequitur

Quote:
Many will accuse me of generalizing, for this is the favourite defence of those seeking to find an escape from insulting or hurtful premises they cannot contradict directly, but I will remind them that any exception to the rule only serves to prove the existence of a rule.


This is a falsehood.

Firstly, generalizations often have value. Instead of making the case for the value you simply make a daisy chained fallacy, making a pre-emptive ad hominem on the basis of guilt by association.

You go on to make a spectacular logical brainfart when you claim "exception to the rule only serves to prove the existence of a rule".

This is mere wordplay that seeks to fudge the difference between a rule your attempt to make the case for one.

In the latter, exceptions do not "prove" your rule so much as question its validity.

And puerile wordplay is not an adequate response to said challenges to the validity of the "rule" you seek to make the case for.

Quote:
If it were not so then science itself would be impossible and specific studies would have to be conducted for each and every individual alive on any given time.


You are confusing the legitimacy of generalizations with the legitimacy of yours.

True, generalization per se is not fallacious, that does not mean yours is not, so you'll have to do more than invoke this obviousness to make the case for your generalizations.

Quote:
There would have to be a science focused entirely on me, one on you and every category and label would be absurd and meaningless.


Indeed, but again, this does not mean you thesis is not absurd, just that an inability to discern between fallacious generalization and non-fallacious generalization is flawed.

Quote:
But more than all this, the following critical analysis of man and woman in social contexts are based on my personal observations and deductions and will not be defended using popular beliefs, political-correctness, scientific studies, or any third-party sources even if this is also is possible.


Gotcha, it is duly noted for the record that this thesis will remain in the realm of an ipse dixit.

Quote:
It is clear that one can find a study defending most perspectives making the studies themselves and the way they are conducted questionable.


Indeed, and your reliance on your ipse dixit and desire to exclude other realms of study make this a prime candidate for classification as demand-side ratiocination.

Quote:
Those dependants on the assessment of others, to create personal beliefs, inadvertently expose their weaknesses and limitations.


Those exclusively dependant on their own accessments, to create personal beliefs, willingly not only expose their weaknesses and limitations but then proceed to rely on them with exclusivity.

Far more daft.

I'll also note that this introduction is long past logorrhea and has yet to introduce any validity to your thesis. A thesis that spends most of it's time pre-empting refutation with exlusionary disclaimers 'inadvertently exposes its weaknesses and limitations'.

Quote:
In areas where direct observation is impossible a reliance on second-hand accounts is understandable, but in areas where personal experience is possible and sensual awareness is feasible a personal assessment, is often, more preferable and constructive.


Unless, of course, personal bias detracts from objectivity.

You can't make a decent case for "personal observation" being more objective than peer-review.

This is a crutch for the inability to survive peer-review.

Quote:
What follows is my perspective, based on my personal experiences and observations, using my senses and mental faculties.


Again, I note the declaration of it being an ipse dixit and laud your good sense in using this disclaimer.

Quote:
Any contradiction of popular scientific or other common beliefs is understandable and irrelevant.


Huh? Make the case for the irrelevance you claim.

I've never seen someone actually take pride in ipse dixits and an inability to substantiate their opinion, so I'm not sure if this is just another of the "the moon is cheese and don't ask me to proove it" things you do or if you think you can actually substantiate your claim.

Quote:
You cannot judge the accuracy of an idea by its popularity but by the strength of its argument, the supporting evidence and the ordered reasonable manner by which it is presented.


And the disclaimer rambles on...

Look, you have yet to establish either popularity of an idea or strength of an argument.

Heck, thus far it's all disclaimer to prevent you from having to actually make arguments to substantiate your opinions. Laughing

Quote:
I will expect nobody to take my word for anything or to simply agree with me; I actually expect scepticism and personal supporting or contradicting observations to prove or disprove the precision of my opinions.


The best thing you've said thus far.

Quote:
This entire following text is meant to promote free-thinking and personal intellectual effort and to encourage debate and individual awareness that may promote choices and free-will.


Hey, if you can't make a good argument the next best thing is to "provoke thought".

    Person B: That is a silly thesis. Person A: It may well be, but at least it made you think.


Compare it to:

"I was just testing you".

Quote:
It is normal that the subject of males and females and of sex in general, is going to raise some controversy given the central role sexuality plays in human existence and given the popular sentiments of our western, ?'modern' world. But my intent is to insight thought and debate, not anger and self-hate.


Any intent to take to beyond a disclaimer before halftime?

Quote:
To dismiss me as being a sexist, a male chauvinist or one suffering from some mental or psychological ailment or sexual dysfunction is to not deal with the subject at hand but on my apparent human imperfections upon which much speculation can be dedicated.


I agree, and for this reason the fallacy and brainfarts will be what I focus on.

Well, I've exhausted my break time and must go back to work. It's a pity that I only got halfway through the disclaimer. Laughing

I did, however, skim the rest and there's not much of a thesis there, just a lot of logorrhea.

How about summarizing your thesis in a paragraph (doesn't have to contain it's supporting arguments)? It would make it more appealing for others to read.
0 Replies
 
Wanderer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Sep, 2004 08:10 am
Craven de Kere
Quote:
Care to explain the illogical segue*?

Just mentioning how small divergence can have large consequences.

Quote:
Firstly, generalizations often have value. Instead of making the case for the value you simply make a daisy chained fallacy, making a pre-emptive ad hominem on the basis of guilt by association.

All human thought is a generalization and a simplification of much more complicated phenomena.

Quote:
In the latter, exceptions do not "prove" your rule so much as question its validity.

I never said my theory is fact.
Can you define fact?

Quote:
Indeed, and your reliance on your ipse dixit and desire to exclude other realms of study make this a prime candidate for classification as demand-side ratiocination.

I wouldn't "exclude other realms of study" if it is also noted that these other realms are dependant on and influenced by human factors, as well.
Popularity or labels of quality, themselves a product of systemic forces are no proof of anything.
Faith is a requisite part of all acceptance of opinion not based on personal observation.
Some place faith in self-flattering and self-saving beliefs of omnipotence and omniscience, others place it on scientific methodology practiced by unknowns.

Quote:
Those exclusively dependant on their own accessments, to create personal beliefs, willingly not only expose their weaknesses and limitations but then proceed to rely on them with exclusivity.

"Exclusivity" is your word, not mine.

I'm only reminding you that even your dependence on second-hand accounts that somehow follow some more objective path is fraught with subjective reasoning.

Quote:
I'll also note that this introduction is long past logorrhea and has yet to introduce any validity to your thesis. A thesis that spends most of it's time pre-empting refutation with exlusionary disclaimers 'inadvertently exposes its weaknesses and limitations'.
It's only based on experience with the posting of this subject from other Forums and pre-empts specific replies.
But beyond my ?'weaknesses and limitations, of which I certainly have plenty, I wonder what your total reliance on other peoples work says about your weaknesses and limitations.

A theory created using personal effort and contemplation is always more beneficial than one that is adopted and accepted.
The first method exposes you to the full spectrum of possibility and forces you to deal with the multiplicity of side-matters connected to the subject, not all of which can be dealt with in a single essay; the second method of knowledge gathering simply offers you the end result the answer. Most probably always the one more popular in a given time and culture and always full of social motives and cultural dogmas ignored by the unsuspecting ?'faithful'.

Quote:
Unless, of course, personal bias detracts from objectivity.
You may have fallen for that myth about objectivity but I have not.
All human thought is subjective.
What we often call ?'objective' is when it has been corroborated and accepted by a majority or peers or social groups.
There is no ?'reality' available to man, beyond his interpretations of it.
Interpretations are always subject to motives, desires and prejudices.
For example: The fact that the US is a benevolent, free and Democratic system is widely accepted in the west, especially in the US itself, as ?'truth' and passed over as merely a matter of fact which needs no supporting evidence, except the very assertions of those participating in it.

Quote:

You can't make a decent case for "personal observation" being more objective than peer-review.

This is a crutch for the inability to survive peer-review.
Am I not posting it on a Forum?

Quote:
Huh? Make the case for the irrelevance you claim.
Popularity is not proof of validity.
There have been a myriad of ?'truth's' believed in the past which today are thought of as foolish and there are many present day ?'truths' in other cultures which we, in the west, consider laughable.
Perspective is influenced by cultural and social norms.

Someone claiming heliocentric solar systems centuries ago would have been ridiculed by his scientific peers.
Schopenhauer, using his reason and personal observations and his knowledge of scientific insights in his time, made the assumption that the universe is a product of a blind will and all objects and phenomena in it like notes in a symphony.
Very reminiscent of modern day String-Theory revelations.

Could he offer proof of his theory, at that time? No.
He could only offer a train of thought that leads him to that conclusion.
Could it have been said that it adhered to the scientific beliefs of his time?
No, he would have been mocked.

Quote:
I've never seen someone actually take pride in ipse dixits and an inability to substantiate their opinion, so I'm not sure if this is just another of the "the moon is cheese and don't ask me to proove it" things you do or if you think you can actually substantiate your claim.
Define 'proof' and I will offer you some.

Quote:
Hey, if you can't make a good argument the next best thing is to "provoke thought".
No, the next best thing, is to, like you, accept the argument of another.

Quote:
Well, I've exhausted my break time and must go back to work. It's a pity that I only got halfway through the disclaimer.
Funny then how you claim to know I make no arguments.
Off top work, little one, the bourgeoisie demands upon your intellect take precedence over free thinking.
You've replaced one faith for another. Typical.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Sep, 2004 09:13 am
Wanderer wrote:
Craven de Kere
Quote:
Care to explain the illogical segue*?

Just mentioning how small divergence can have large consequences.


Using the "chaos theory"?

This sounds like pop-science, but it's trivial.

Quote:
Quote:
Firstly, generalizations often have value. Instead of making the case for the value you simply make a daisy chained fallacy, making a pre-emptive ad hominem on the basis of guilt by association.

All human thought is a generalization and a simplification of much more complicated phenomena.


That would be an excellent refutation of a blanket indictment of generalizations.

However, I made no such indictment and this is a red herring/straw man (depending on how you look at it).

Quote:
Quote:
In the latter, exceptions do not "prove" your rule so much as question its validity.

I never said my theory is fact.
Can you define fact?


I did not use the word "fact" even once in my post.

You are asking me to define words I did not use. Laughing

Quote:
I wouldn't "exclude other realms of study" if it is also noted that these other realms are dependant on and influenced by human factors, as well.
Popularity or labels of quality, themselves a product of systemic forces are no proof of anything.


Yes yes, and to cut the logorrhea short the terms for such a claim is fallacious argumentum ad populum.

No need to make the case for the logical axioms, just reference the terms and you can say it in a few words.

Quote:
Quote:
Those exclusively dependant on their own accessments, to create personal beliefs, willingly not only expose their weaknesses and limitations but then proceed to rely on them with exclusivity.

"Exclusivity" is your word, not mine.


Irrelevance and the exclusion of them were elements of your disclaimer.

It's right up there above, we can bring citations should you desire.

Quote:
I'm only reminding you that even your dependence on second-hand accounts that somehow follow some more objective path is fraught with subjective reasoning.


I made no claim of any dependence on second-hand accounts. I merely made an indictment on your ipse dixit logic.

Quote:
It's only based on experience with the posting of this subject from other Forums and pre-empts specific replies.


I know, it was clear that you are used to holding contested and eminently contestable positions.

Quote:
But beyond my ?'weaknesses and limitations, of which I certainly have plenty, I wonder what your total reliance on other peoples work says about your weaknesses and limitations.


This is a fallacious straw man. I have never said, or even come close to implying, any reliance at all on other people's work. Much less a "total reliance".

This is a good demonstration of the straw man tactic in debate.

Quote:
A theory created using personal effort and contemplation is always more beneficial than one that is adopted and accepted.


I call bullshit. This is a false logical axiom.

I will be happy to illustrate that for you should it be necessary.

Quote:
The first method exposes you to the full spectrum of possibility and forces you to deal with the multiplicity of side-matters connected to the subject, not all of which can be dealt with in a single essay; the second method of knowledge gathering simply offers you the end result the answer.


I'm perfectly willing to agree that one method has advantages over the other, but your claim was a different one, to the effect that the end result was "always" better.

That, was a brainfart and demonstratably false.

Quote:
Quote:
Unless, of course, personal bias detracts from objectivity.
You may have fallen for that myth about objectivity but I have not.


Objectivity is not a myth. Laughing

Quote:
All human thought is subjective.


To varying degrees. Which makes pure objectivity a concept, not a myth. ;-)

Quote:
Quote:

You can't make a decent case for "personal observation" being more objective than peer-review.

This is a crutch for the inability to survive peer-review.
Am I not posting it on a Forum?


Yes, with a disclaimer on all the refutations you will arbitrarily deem "irrelevant".

Your "peer-review" seems to come with your own rules crafted to your own advantage. <shrugs>

Quote:
Quote:
Huh? Make the case for the irrelevance you claim.
Popularity is not proof of validity.


That is a case against the "appeal to popularity" not to the claim you made:

"Any contradiction of popular scientific or other common beliefs is understandable and irrelevant."

That is a falsehood, and the fact that many appeals to popularity are fallacious does not make your false statement true.

Note that not all appeals to popularity are fallacious. I can elucidate if necessary.

Quote:
Someone claiming heliocentric solar systems centuries ago would have been ridiculed by his scientific peers.


<smiles>

I hope you don't think you are a visionary and all...

Sure, some "voices crying in the wilderness" eventually get vindication, but far too many think they qualify than do so.


Quote:
Could he offer proof of his theory, at that time? No.


And you can't either? I ask, because you haven't summarized your theory yet. Just a bunch of fallacy-ridden disclaimers up to where I got.

Quote:
Quote:
I've never seen someone actually take pride in ipse dixits and an inability to substantiate their opinion, so I'm not sure if this is just another of the "the moon is cheese and don't ask me to proove it" things you do or if you think you can actually substantiate your claim.
Define 'proof' and I will offer you some.


At the moment I will settle for:

a) a summary of your thesis (sans any supporting arguments).

once you get that small part done (might be difficult to eek out of you because, like me, you like to ramble) I'll settle for:

b) supporting arguments

Quote:
Quote:
Hey, if you can't make a good argument the next best thing is to "provoke thought".
No, the next best thing, is to, like you, accept the argument of another.


Like me? Well, this should be an easy question for you:

Whose argument do you claim I "accept"? Laughing

Note: by being more careful in debate you can avoid sloppy mistakes like this, I never claimed to rely or accept other people's arguments, I merely indicted your dismissal of them as "irrelevant".

Quote:
Quote:
Well, I've exhausted my break time and must go back to work. It's a pity that I only got halfway through the disclaimer.
Funny then how you claim to know I make no arguments.


In the part I got through you made no position-specific arguments.

I made no claim of you never having made an argument in your life, just not any to support the thesis in the parts I read.

I expect there should be at least some in the parts I will later read, and I hope they are of better caliber than the support for the disclaimers.

Again, if you summarize your thesis we can get you on paper with a position, and avoid the possibility of volume-based ambiguity.

Quote:
Off top work, little one, the bourgeoisie demands upon your intellect take precedence over free thinking.
You've replaced one faith for another. Typical.


<smiles>

You aren't making sense.

Who says my work does not involve "free thinking"?

Nevermind, it's just a dig at me, it doesn't bother me that it's non-sensical. ;-)
0 Replies
 
BoGoWo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Sep, 2004 09:18 am
First, Wanderer, i would like to welcome you to a2k;

At first reading *, i found your treatise well thought out, generally accurate, and in keeping with many of my own views of humanity, and the challenges currently opposing our "breakout"!

I have copied the text in order to print it out (so sue me! :wink: ) in order to digest it further before comment (having scanned Craven's response, i find i balked at many of the same places) .
Good thoughts - should be a valuable discussion (if we can avoid it's degradation into a debate!).

[* i would suggest that, in future, you give your work a more thorough editing, and use the 'spellcheck' option, to render your piece a quicker read without grammatical interruption.]
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Sep, 2004 09:18 am
Wanderer,

This does seem rather like the beginning of a Sophmore term paper for a class in Philosophy. Probably not better than a C effort, and Craven's comments are on point.

You need to adapt your presentation to this particular media and audience. Don't go away, we expect more of you.
0 Replies
 
Smartsux
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Sep, 2004 09:37 am
I don't mean to lighten the mood any...no, I wouldn't dare...but, I have one very, very important word.















metrosexual!
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Sep, 2004 10:09 am
Re: The Feminization of Man
Wanderer wrote:

There is no conspiracy here, no invisible entity directing things from the shadows. We might even say that the process is ?'natural' and the consequence of a normal social progression that started in the tribal unit and has resulted in the emergence of a huge socioeconomic machine, with its own logic and interest, assimilating, conforming, levelling and eradicating everything in its path.


I'm heartened that you don't ascribe it to a conspiracy. But saying it's natural put's it at odds with your previous text (emphasis mine):

Quote:
Centuries of social engineering and ?'civilization' have led to a type of human being unlike our ancestor and, still to this day, socialization persists to filter out all the ?'unwanted' human characteristics, altering, in this way, human nature and degenerating, in my opinion, the human spirit into indistinct oblivion.


Define "human nature" and explain how this alledged process is any less a part of "human nature".

Quote:
A fundamental characteristic of weakness, as a concept, is its willingness to sacrifice a part of itself to save its entirety.


This has a base emotional appeal but in logic it's simply not more than clever wordplay, more prose than critical thought.

You can construct a null hypothesis by making a reverse wordplay that is just as good:

"A fundamental characteristic of weakness, as a concept, is its unwillingness to sacrifice a part of itself to save its entirety."

Quote:
Weakness is furthermore characterized by its inconspicuousness, its ability to blend and vanish into the multitude, its non-confrontational incorporation into more powerful entities, its expendability, its commonness, its malleability, its reliability and willingness [when conscious] to conform and adapt.


I contend that you are delineating a very specific (if arbitrary) definition of "weakness" and depending on how you use it subsequently you run the risk of commiting the fallacy of equivocation.

Quote:
The ?'If you can't beat them join them' strategy is one most often practiced in nature and in our universe; what cannot survive on its own inevitably either perishes or winds up as a part of something bigger and stronger, by means of consumption, via having its parts absorbed, or assimilation, via having its parts conformed.


This truism is undermined by the faulure to delineate between:

a) If you can't beat them (x), join them (x).

and

b) If you can't beat them (y), join them (y).

I suspect that for the purpose of supporting your thesis only one is appropriate and I suspect it's the one that is not the more common part of natural evolution. Let's see.

Quote:
In the west, where centuries of world domination and due to its contamination by Judeo-Christian ethical systems and altruistic ideologies that were the product of a slavish resentment of all things superior and because of a general decadence caused by attrition and complacency, the paternalistic system has eroded enough to make equalitarian impoverishment and spiritual degradation possible.


Do you consider non-paternal societies to be a "contamination" from a paternal ideal?

Quote:
Democracy is the result of weariness, caused by the constant conflict and uncertainty of previous political systems, and the natural consequence of population explosions that enabled individuals, of questionable quality, to unite and achieve political relevance through the strength of numbers; it is also the expected result of increasing demands for resources, caused by a prospering civilization, shrinking spaces and a human psychological predisposition for peace and stability.


Emphasis mine.

Define "quality" in your accessment.

Quote:
This trend towards larger and more malleable populations, existing within smaller spaces and dwindling resources, has made equalitarian, servile moralities essential and vital.


Yet objectionable to you?

Quote:
The more complacent, unaware and gullible a population is the more governable and controllable it becomes. It is therefore understandable why unsettling ideas must be quarantined and eradicated, why free thought must be restricted and why defiance and uniqueness must be controlled and punished as an example to be avoided before it becomes one to be emulated.


The leap from thought to behavior should be more carefully examined.

There is a causative link, but in proximity it is largely the behavior that is the issue, not mere thought.

Quote:
In our modern western world this dummying-up of the masses has resulted in populations that, despite their relative affluence, learning access and general prosperity, display the apathy, ignorance and naïveté of the less fortunate in third-world countries.


Where do you substantiate the behavioral evolutions from proximity being "dummying-up"?

And furthermore, please substantiate your last comment.

I have lived in many 1st and 3rd world countries and will challenge your attempt to substantiate your claim (with personally observed data to boot ;-) ).

Note: It's just a playful reminder of your text, don't expect me to make a fallacious appeal to authority on that basis.

Quote:
The complete indoctrination of man into artificial [manmade] environments, sometimes demanding behaviours contrary to more primitive natural ones....


This is a common fallacy. The naturalistic fallacy or the appeal to nature.

Beyond your inability to support the notion of "unnatural" you subsequently rely on the appeal to nature.


Quote:
....has moreover been facilitated by the gradual diminution of man through unnatural sexual selection...


Again, define "natural". You have no basis on which to declare what is, and what is not "natural sexual selection" and subsequently no basis upon which to deem either the ideal.

Quote:
...re-education and the slow eradication of the, before mentioned, human characteristics that made man a natural dominator and a survivor in a threatening universe.


"Human characteristics"? You simply mean the ones you favor, as you have no basis upon which to declare that the evolving characteristics and not "human".

This whole screed is just a fallacious argumentum ad antiquitatem.

Quote:
It is derisive that the very intellectual superiority that resulted in human dominion is also contemporary society's greatest foe, that must be controlled and even narrowed, and the very male spiritual attitude that knelt to no natural demand and accepted no holy authority is now to be atrophied and warped.


1) You can't substantiate that human intellectual superiority over animals is "contemporary society's greatest foe" (because it's a ludicrous claim).

2) You can't substantuate that it is "very male". Laughing


More later. Please post the summary, the screed doesn't improve as it progresses and some clarity of thought on your part would be advisable.

Note: It's not a linguistic preference, but a call to clear critical thought to emerge from a rambling screed.
0 Replies
 
rufio
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Sep, 2004 11:01 am
Ahhhhhhhh, I thought I was done reading lengthy metascientific mumbo jumbo for the day. I'll come back to read this when I don't already have to study for two highly theoretical anthropology classes tommorrow.
0 Replies
 
Wanderer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Sep, 2004 02:25 pm
Reply
rufio
Quote:
Ahhhhhhhh, I thought I was done reading lengthy metascientific mumbo jumbo for the day. I'll come back to read this when I don't already have to study for two highly theoretical anthropology classes tommorrow.

I'm glad you did me the honour of placing me behind the scientific mumbo-jumbo you are currently being trained to accept as ?'fact' so that you can get a good job and become a disciplined, and obedient member of the group you are being trained by.
I'm sure there are your counterparts in other social systems being, likewise, instructed in what is ?'truth' and what is "mumbo-jumbo".
For some the very things you consider ?'fact' are being labelled falsehoods.

Craven de Kere
I'm glad you took time off from your busy schedule and from your prestigious profession to acknowledge my presence.

Quote:
I'm heartened that you don't ascribe it to a conspiracy. But saying it's natural put's it at odds with your previous text (emphasis mine):
Living up to your expectations, dear sir, is what I'm here for.
A man with your, obvious, intellectual power can only flatter with his interest and attentions.

Quote:
Define "human nature" and explain how this alledged process is any less a part of "human nature".
Ah, very good.
It is one of those terms that need definition.
A definition neglected due to my desire to keep the essay as short as possible [Hey, I tried] and because I wanted to keep the door open for further clarifications and discussion.
Posting an entire book would not be possible in such Forums.

Of course the word ?'natural', in a broader sense, can be made to include all that is or is being perceived.
We can say that even the products of the human intellect and human ingenuity are natural consequences of evolution.

But, I use it here with a much more restricting definition.
In the proceeding essay what I deem ?'natural' is the product of natural selection and the unconscious forces of chance or evolution.
I exclude all products of the human mind.
Human interventions within pre-existing (to mans appearance) systems I consider unnatural or artificial.
For example:
If a cow is sick and man injects said animal with chemicals that would otherwise not be available to it thusly saving it from a natural death, I call this an unnatural intervention.
We all know that saving a herd of animals from disease or protecting it from predators and the ?'natural' attrition of time, may be beneficial to them in the short term, but what about the long term effects?

My position is that once an ?'artificial' agent comes into play within an enclosed system, this artificial agent must continue interjecting to undo the side-effects of the original intervention.
For instance, mans need for resources required vast population that had to be taken out of the natural selection system, through which populations and population health is regulated, and placed in a manmade social/cultural system, we call civilization.
Now we all know the benefits of civilization, but how many have considered the detrimental ramifications and the prices for them?
My position is not that ?'unnatural' or manmade systems are necessarily bad but that the full consequences of them must be analyzed and taken into consideration.
When we protect the weak and we allow them to propagate, we may be ensuring working hands to collect resources, even if we may tell ourselves it is out of strictly ultruistic motivations, but we are also allowing weakness itself to propagate.

I believe cancer and most mental and physical ailments today are a direct result of overpopulation and the nurturing of flaws within our genetic code. They are a result of mans intervention upon nature.
Nature has a method of weeding out flaw and weakness, usurping her methods demands further genetic interventions to undo the results; something currently occurring.
The feminization of man is but a symptom of this genetic degradation.

Those most insulted by the implications are the ones most benefiting from the current system and so have an invested interest in maintaining things the way they are.
Comfort and ease are attractive to the human mind weary of suffering and struggle and unsure if it could measure up to natures more stringent and unforgiving standards.
That means you, my 'latin using' friend.

Quote:
This has a base emotional appeal but in logic it's simply not more than clever wordplay, more prose than critical thought.

You can construct a null hypothesis by making a reverse wordplay that is just as good:

"A fundamental characteristic of weakness, as a concept, is its unwillingness to sacrifice a part of itself to save its entirety."

Perhaps you need to think it through first.
I would say the accuracy or inaccuracy of the two phrases can be deduced by how well they adhere to perceivable phenomena.

Anything weak gets assimilated into something stronger by necessity.
The cells in your body are independent life forms that found a survival benefit in sacrificing parts of their selves to a greater whole, thusly proving an inherit weakness in them in relation to a given environment.
All social animals sacrifice parts of their free-will and independence to a group.

The fact that there needs to be a sacrifice made at all, only speaks of weakness.

Now I will recognize that you are realizing the personal implications of what I'm saying and it insults your conformist sensibilities. This is why you are so forcefully and insultingly objecting to them.
For you the sacrifice of part of your self to survive proves adaptability and therefore superiority when in essence it does the reverse.

By the way isn't it a contradiction to "sacrifice a piece of" and "save an entirety"?
How can you save an entirety and sacrifice a piece of, at the same time?
But you're obviously smarter than me so I'm sure there's a logical explanation

Quote:
Do you consider non-paternal societies to be a "contamination" from a paternal ideal?
Yes.

For our species, at least.

Quote:
Define "quality" in your accessment.

All measurements are comparisons of a specific unit to another or of a specific unit to a perceived average.

Quote:
Yet objectionable to you?

When morons get into authority positions simply because they are morons, yes.
When positions of power are inherited and passed down with no effort on the part of the one inheriting, yes.
When privilege and power is possessed by a position or a seat and not the individual sitting in it or possessing it and all that is asked is that one conforms to the ideal or that values are mirrored in near perfection, yes.
When idiots hold the same political power as intellectuals, yes.
When this means that individuality will become a thing of a bygone era and the super-organism will replace the organism, yes.
When my individual interests are threatened, by masses of idiots, yes.
When quality takes a back seat to quantity, yes.

Quote:
The leap from thought to behavior should be more carefully examined.

There is a causative link, but in proximity it is largely the behavior that is the issue, not mere thought.
Denial is a terrible thing.

Quote:
Where do you substantiate the behavioral evolutions from proximity being "dummying-up"?

And furthermore, please substantiate your last comment.

I have lived in many 1st and 3rd world countries and will challenge your attempt to substantiate your claim (with personally observed data to boot ).

Funny so have I.

I found the political awareness of peoples in poorer countries and their willingness to participate in the process, despite the burden of trying to just survive, was far superior to that of your nation, for example, with a 50% participation rate and a complete ignorance as to what ?'rightwing' and ?'leftwing' means.

As affluence increases so does complacency.
Human nature.

I appreciate your desire to display your intellectual fortitude by sprinkling Latin amongst your very insightful commentary, but, if I'm not mistaken, this conversation is using the English language.
If you wish to respond by only using Latin, that would be fine with me if you also allow me to show-off my knowledge of Greek by answering you using it.

Now your job, your knowledge of Latin, your car, your portfolio or the labels of social and cultural compliance you place before your name to prove worth, do not interest me and should only be used to wow those in your immediate environment.
I'm sure that towards them a few Latin remarks are enough to make them wonder at your superior mind but towards me they are just a cause of boredom.

I would say that you have replaced religious dogma with the modern scientific dogma, which requires just as much unquestionable faith as the previous one.
You find strength in numbers and your safety and comforts are the things you relish the most.
I believe that because, in our time, science is totally dependant on public funds that its objectivity must be questioned.
Public funds come from public coffers under public control.
We all know what the average public quality of mind is, now don't we?

When science is reliant on moneys that come from a population still believing in ghosts and UFO's, one must wonder at how many theories are denied utterance because they lack absolute substantiation.
When one considers the effects of scientific specialization and the state of the educational system that teaches what to think but not how, one wonders at the objectivity and critical thinking of those engaged in science.
Scientists are human as well and so subject to the same psychological pressures and cultural influences, everybody else is.
Furthermore science is under the jurisdiction of the state, with its own motives and prejudices.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Sep, 2004 02:51 pm
Just briefly ... I don't believe Craven is a product of the US educational system. He is without formal degrees, but that only underscores the brilliance of his natural intellect. In my opinion, Craven's potential is very great and I hope that he does pursue formal degrees.

This is one of Craven's "hot buttons", but what he lacks most is the maturity one associates with age. Great promise in Craven.
0 Replies
 
rufio
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Sep, 2004 03:40 pm
Don't worry, wanderer, no self-respecting anthropologist would ever claim to be writing about "fact". That's way too objective a term for the academic elite. Razz

Since I didn't read your thesis, I'm not commenting on the content - only on the length and the clarity.

The real reason your theory on whatever social construction or context or role or whatever comes after the ones I am reading is because I actually get a grade for reading and attempting to understand them. There are enough wordy, pretentious academics in this world. Please don't try to become another one.
0 Replies
 
rufio
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Sep, 2004 05:09 pm
Alright, I've read through up till the end of the prologue part. Since your pretentious writing style and your subject and lack of clarity tend to remind me of the earlier anthrolopological theorists I keep having to read, I'm going to treat your treatise the same way I treat theirs. This means I won't comment on your rampant person biases and unrivaled use of ethos (writing it all off as a by-product of your cultural environment of course) and only remark on your treatment of theory.

In terms of the theory, it reminds me of Morgan in terms of its evolutionism, of Malinowski in terms of its functionalism, and of Marx in terms of its criticism. Not to say you actually read any of them or "plageurized," as you said, their ideas, but just that that is the same basis from which you come, intellectually.

Now for my comments. They're in the form of short notes rather than a long-winded essay, because I have to go to dinner and I'm starving.

Socialization does not filter anything out - socialization is something that happens to people after they are already here, and thus unable to be "filtered out". What it instills in those people is not genetic, and thus cannot be filtered in any biological way either.

Since human beings created socializing influences, they cannot be alien to humanity.

"Who" is this ancestor to whom you compare us?

"We might also say that this ?'natural' process has its roots in human physical disadvantage causing psychological insecurity that makes the cooperation of individual beings a forced necessity."
We might also say that cooporation was found to be superior to the lack thereof...

"sacrificing of individuality for the sake of survival"
Whence does this "individuality" come, if not from the above-mentioned socialization?

Why is it a weakness to sacrifice a part to save the whole? Or to change and adapt? Is it not equally weak to accept alien ideas into your own belief system as it is to let your own ideas join another?

Man is not outside a group - man is a group, and within the broad characterization of "man" there are smaller communities of people which are groups.

Why are the creations of man "artificial"? Is man "artificial"?

"continuance"?

Why do you think that cultural rules neccessarily block out true neccessities? Certainly, they act contrary to things we might otherwise be inclined to do, but if any cultural practice actually went contrary to real neccessities, the people would die out or the culture would have to change.

The West is still patralineal, for the most part, See thread in the relationship section about taking the woman's last name.

"social engineering is still controlled by males"
Are you saying that women have no culture, teach nothing of cultural value to their daughters?

"equalitarian"?

Since when do human beings have a predisposition for "peace and stability"?

"In our modern western world this dummying-up of the masses has resulted in populations that, despite their relative affluence, learning access and general prosperity, display the apathy, ignorance and naïveté of the less fortunate in third-world countries."
If it is the fault of the modern world and Judeo-Christian ethics that this "degredation," as you say, has happened, than why would the same "degredation" exist in third-world countries? I thought you were going to nostalgicly remenisce about the "noble savage" archetype.

"the slow eradication of the, before mentioned, human characteristics that made man a natural dominator and a survivor in a threatening universe."
Is man not still the dominant animal in the world today?

"the very male spiritual attitude that knelt to no natural demand and accepted no holy authority"
There have always been cultural constraints on sexual expression, most notably on incest, even for the "noble savage".

"The quality of the products we own and consume must supposedly symbolize our personal quality, whether it is present or not."
Not our personal quality, but our social place. I would think you would have known the difference by now.

"continuing striving" would be a lot more clear as "continual striving"

"we become simple mirrors of the world around us."
By this, do you mean "the natural world around us" or "the world that we have built around us"? In the one case, I don't see why you're unhappy, and in ther other, isn't it only natural that we should mirror the things we have built?

But isn't material trade and economic distribution another form of connectedness? Capitalism as a system does not function when everyone is too "miserly" to trade their materials with one another. You forget the effect of trade and capitalism - there is a trade relationship, and a position of power, and a position of subordination, an assertion of status. A lot of thinking and feeling goes into any kind of interaction with a person, be it a seller or a friend.

Whence come the "natural rules" that ownership has "usurped"?

Are you saying that we are reshaping our own nature? If you are, than who are you to say that that is a bad thing?


********************************

How was that for a taste of some academic elitism to rival your own? I'll be back with more after I eat and write a paper about the culture of tourism.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2004 01:32 am
Re: Reply
Wanderer wrote:
Craven de Kere
I'm glad you took time off from your busy schedule and from your prestigious profession to acknowledge my presence.


I think you are being sarcatic and trying to insult, but in case I am wrong: you're welcome.

Quote:
Living up to your expectations, dear sir, is what I'm here for.
A man with your, obvious, intellectual power can only flatter with his interest and attentions.


Again, I get the feeling you wish to make sarcastic quips instead of discuss anything, but in case I am wrong; thank you.

Quote:
Quote:
Define "human nature" and explain how this alledged process is any less a part of "human nature".
Ah, very good.
It is one of those terms that need definition. ....

We can say that even the products of the human intellect and human ingenuity are natural consequences of evolution.


Indeed, as in all that occurs within nature.

Quote:
But, I use it here with a much more restricting definition.
In the proceeding essay what I deem ?'natural' is the product of natural selection and the unconscious forces of chance or evolution.


The definition is as arbitrary as it is restrictive. You simply moved the goal posts one step further to a new undefined variable ("product of natural selection").

So, pray tell, what is your definition of "product of natural selection" which, in turn, holds the key to the definition of "natural".

I have yet to see you post a summary of your position, but thus far it seems to rage against what may well be a "product of natural selection" through the use of a naturalistic fallacy.

This is why I seek the definition you are operating under, and making it once removed to another arbitrarily defined definition doesn't improve the logic any.

Quote:
I exclude all products of the human mind.


I don't think you do. Nor do I think you can. But I'd be happy to hear how you think you do this.

Afterward, I'd be interested in knowing the basis on which you deem this exclusion worthy. After all, the next question is whether the mind is unatural.

Quote:
Human interventions within pre-existing (to mans appearance) systems I consider unnatural or artificial.


I know, but I am asking for the basis for this distinction.

Quote:
For example:
If a cow is sick and man injects said animal with chemicals that would otherwise not be available to it thusly saving it from a natural death, I call this an unnatural intervention.


And upon what do you base the validity of this distinction? This is a textbook naturalistic fallacy, and you need to be able to demonstrate the validity of your construct, simply calling it "natural" and "unatural" according to an arbitrary definition does not make your case.

Quote:
We all know that saving a herd of animals from disease or protecting it from predators and the ?'natural' attrition of time, may be beneficial to them in the short term, but what about the long term effects?


This does not, in any way, make the case for "natural" vs. "unatural". It does, however start to retreat from the naturalistic fallacy into a logical cost/benefit analysis. I think you'd make more headway by simply getting down to this analysis instead of invoking the natural/unatural issue, as you'd circumvent the naturalistic fallacy in your arguments.

Quote:
My position is that once an ?'artificial' agent comes into play within an enclosed system, this artificial agent must continue interjecting to undo the side-effects of the original intervention.


Again, note that you have shown no basis for the delineation between "artifical" from the "enclosed".

You seem to only be invoking emotional appeals along the lines of "green = natural/chemical = unatural".

Quote:
For instance, mans need for resources required vast population that had to be taken out of the natural selection system, through which populations and population health is regulated, and placed in a manmade social/cultural system, we call civilization.


This sentence lacks coherence.

But what it seems to be trying to say is, once again, held up only by an arbitrary delineation of what you consider part of the natural selection system and what you consider to be foreign to this system.

It's not an axiomatic delineation, as it's eminently arguable that it is simply impossible to escape natural selection. It only evolves to work on different criteria.

Quote:
Now we all know the benefits of civilization, but how many have considered the detrimental ramifications and the prices for them?


This is where your argument should be made, in the cost/benefit analysis and not the invocation of the naturalistic fallacy.

Quote:
My position is not that ?'unnatural' or manmade systems are necessarily bad but that the full consequences of them must be analyzed and taken into consideration.


This is a given, which means the next logical step is to outline the negative consequences you alledge.

Quote:
When we protect the weak and we allow them to propagate, we may be ensuring working hands to collect resources, even if we may tell ourselves it is out of strictly ultruistic motivations, but we are also allowing weakness itself to propagate.


There are many forms of weakness. Many times, what is "weak" in one metric is not in another.

Consider this:

Person A = physically strong
Person B = beautiful

Person C = Protects person B, because of Person B's beauty

Person D may describe the transaction as protecting the weak and a divergenve from "natural selection", but the metric of beauty and its influence is part of nature and is a power unto itself.

So I caution against claiming that weak are protected without giving consideration unto the possibility that this is so because of their strenths elsewhere (if only their power to convice others to protect them).

Quote:
I believe cancer and most mental and physical ailments today are a direct result of overpopulation and the nurturing of flaws within our genetic code.


I'd love to hear your substantiation for this claim. Do note that said ailments occur at a lesser rate today than in less populated ages.

Population density can contribute to many ailments merely because of its relationship with proximity, but to make the case for a causative link of the nature you describe is to ignore more significant causative links.

In any case, feel free to make your case for it.

Quote:
They are a result of mans intervention upon nature.


Man is a part of nature, as are mans' interventions. Mans' interventions can be shown to have lessened said ailments so you will have a hard time making such a simplistic case.

Quote:
Nature has a method of weeding out flaw and weakness, usurping her methods demands further genetic interventions to undo the results; something currently occurring.
The feminization of man is but a symptom of this genetic degradation.


You have failed to even establish the existence of what you now attempt to explain the cause for.

You might want to get the basic logic of that argument sorted out.

Quote:
Those most insulted by the implications are the ones most benefiting from the current system and so have an invested interest in maintaining things the way they are.


This, is a transparent attempt to ascribe motivations for refutation of your positions on the basis of ad hominems (against the messenger rather than their arguments) against the individuals.

You would do better to address the logic of their refutations.

Quote:
Comfort and ease are attractive to the human mind weary of suffering and struggle and unsure if it could measure up to natures more stringent and unforgiving standards.
That means you, my 'latin using' friend.


Your arguments would be better served to address arguments, rather than ascribe characteristics to those who bring them.

Quote:
Quote:
This has a base emotional appeal but in logic it's simply not more than clever wordplay, more prose than critical thought.

You can construct a null hypothesis by making a reverse wordplay that is just as good:

"A fundamental characteristic of weakness, as a concept, is its unwillingness to sacrifice a part of itself to save its entirety."

Perhaps you need to think it through first.
I would say the accuracy or inaccuracy of the two phrases can be deduced by how well they adhere to perceivable phenomena.


You would do so in error, as the subjective interpretation of what consitutes weakness (your version is not sacrificing self) would be a variable present in the evaluation of adherence to "perceivable phenomena".

In short, your test of the null hypothesis fails because it again relies on the interpretation of "weakness" in the perception.

This is why either are merely wordplay without first nailing down the nature of weakness.

Quote:
Anything weak gets assimilated into something stronger by necessity.


You have proposed an axiom. You need to substantiate it or ad qualifiers to address its flawed absolutism and reliance on your interpretation of weakness.

Quote:
The fact that there needs to be a sacrifice made at all, only speaks of weakness.


Only according to a definition of "weakness" that is circular in its logic and ultimately relies only on an ipse dixit.

Quote:
Now I will recognize that you are realizing the personal implications of what I'm saying and it insults your conformist sensibilities.


You are projecting. This does not insult my "conformist sensibilities" and you know nothing of whether I am conformist.

This is just another of your arguments against the man rather than the man's arguments and it only weakens your position.

Argue the arguments, ascribing characteristics to the messenger is a fallacy whose employment you sought to pre-empt against yourself while being willing to use it on those who disagree with you in copious quantity.

Quote:
This is why you are so forcefully and insultingly objecting to them.


You continue to project. I simply argue forcefully, and I am neither insulted by your position nor insulting due to it.

I am pointing out its flaws, and your reaction is to characterize me negatively.

This is a risible circular argument, in which you declare that the refutation of your positions is, in fact, evidence of the validity of your positions.

Quote:
For you the sacrifice of part of your self to survive proves adaptability and therefore superiority when in essence it does the reverse.


I do? Sounds like another unsubstantiated ipse dixit to me.

Quote:
By the way isn't it a contradiction to "sacrifice a piece of" and "save an entirety"?


Only if you think sacrifice is always the opposite of save.

Quote:
How can you save an entirety and sacrifice a piece of, at the same time?


By realizing that sacrifice does not always constutute the opposite of save.

Quote:
But you're obviously smarter than me so I'm sure there's a logical explanation


There's a simple linguistic explanation that one not need be too smart to recognize. The queries you posed only rely on selective definitions to construct wordplay.

Quote:
Quote:
Do you consider non-paternal societies to be a "contamination" from a paternal ideal?
Yes.

For our species, at least.


Wanderer, I have asked repeatedly for you to nail down your thesis. This is the start so whatever your subsequent response, please address this line of inquiry:

Why?

See, now we are getting a clear outline.

1) You consider non-paternal societies to be a "contamination" from a paternal ideal in the human species.

2) Why do you consider the paternal construct an ideal?

Quote:
Quote:
Define "quality" in your accessment.

All measurements are comparisons of a specific unit to another or of a specific unit to a perceived average.


The basis on your perception is what the query is about, as it's clear that it is based on it.

Quote:
Quote:
Yet objectionable to you?

When morons get into authority positions simply because they are morons, yes.


This is an understandable objection.

Quote:
When positions of power are inherited and passed down with no effort on the part of the one inheriting, yes.


This is an understandable objection (and, I will note, a staple of paternal societal constructs).

Quote:
When idiots hold the same political power as intellectuals, yes.


By definition, they don't. They may hold the same political power only on certain metrics.

Quote:
When this means that individuality will become a thing of a bygone era and the super-organism will replace the organism, yes.


Whether or not it means that at all is the question Wanderer.

Quote:
When my individual interests are threatened, by masses of idiots, yes.


By its nature, individuality is always threatened by masses Wanderer.

Quote:
When quality takes a back seat to quantity, yes.


I get the sense that you are talking about people.

Quote:
Quote:
The leap from thought to behavior should be more carefully examined.

There is a causative link, but in proximity it is largely the behavior that is the issue, not mere thought.
Denial is a terrible thing.


Wanderer, yet again you simply ascribe a characteristic to me (in this case denial), in leiu of addressing my argument.

It weakens your position to argue in this manner.

Quote:
I found the political awareness of peoples in poorer countries and their willingness to participate in the process, despite the burden of trying to just survive, was far superior to that of your nation, for example, with a 50% participation rate and a complete ignorance as to what ?'rightwing' and ?'leftwing' means.


Which nations? We can test the participation theory against statistics and laws and eliminate the need to rely on your anecdotal evidence.

Quote:
As affluence increases so does complacency.
Human nature.


The opposite is also true. Think of the "keeping up with the Joneses" soundbyte in comparison to the soundbyte you used.

Quote:
I appreciate your desire to display your intellectual fortitude by sprinkling Latin amongst your very insightful commentary, but, if I'm not mistaken, this conversation is using the English language.


I use the terms that have been established by others. It is not sourced in a desire to reflect on my intellect. I am of the opinion that you are merely projecting, and once again enaging in your negative characterisations.

But I will be happy to provide colloqial English terms for the fallacies you engage in.

For example, this is another one of your ad hominems (against the man).

Quote:
If you wish to respond by only using Latin, that would be fine with me if you also allow me to show-off my knowledge of Greek by answering you using it.


Again, I do not use latin out of a desire to "show off". You may be projecting on me.

Quite frankly, my grasp of latin is rudimentary. I use the terms because they are the names for the logical errors you indulged in. The basis in latin is not my choosing. They were all coined before me.

I suspect that your objection is primarily sourced in having said logical errors demonstrated, but I'm sure you can understand that it would not be reasonable to ask that demonstrations of logical fallacy in your argument be excluded.

So I hope that a suitable compromise will be my inclusion of English translations to the terms.

Quote:
Now your job, your knowledge of Latin, your car, your portfolio or the labels of social and cultural compliance you place before your name to prove worth, do not interest me and should only be used to wow those in your immediate environment.


I have said nothing about my job except to remark that your attempt to use it to insult me was not founded in knowledge of wherther I employ "free thought" in its functions.

I have said nothing at all about my car to you. Quite frankly it's unimpressive. It's my first one so it will do, but my co-worker has convinced me that it is "girly" (no relation to your thesis).

I have no portfolio, you are grasping at straws to make ad hominems (against the man) here.

When you say "the labels of social and cultural compliance you place before your name to prove worth" I suspect you speak of degrees. I don't have any. I only attended 9th grade in full.

Now I would make a request of thee.

If your reliance on ad hominems (against the man) and insults are to continue, I ask only two things of you.

1) That aside from your digs, you actually address the arguments.

2) That you make a "best effort" at constructing more realistic insults. For example, the above seems to center on your assumption that I "wow" those in my proximity with my job, car, degrees, portfolio et all (and all). I think you assumed in error.

Now I know the assumptions are not too relevant to the topic, they are just insults. But when insulted I like a little veracity, otherwise I end up helping correct the insults as well (which is an odd position).

Quote:
I'm sure that towards them a few Latin remarks are enough to make them wonder at your superior mind but towards me they are just a cause of boredom.


I suspect they are a source of irritation, as they have been used to reference your logical fallacies.

Quote:
I would say that you have replaced religious dogma with the modern scientific dogma, which requires just as much unquestionable faith as the previous one.


I would say that you are putting more effort into the ad hominems (against the man) than the positions and arguments.

Quote:
You find strength in numbers and your safety and comforts are the things you relish the most.


You seem to place more faith in your deductive powers based on message board text than I. <shrugs>

Quote:
I believe that because, in our time, science is totally dependant on public funds that its objectivity must be questioned.


Then question its objectivity. Simply issuing insults and soundbytes doesn't make much of a case.

Quote:
Public funds come from public coffers under public control.


This does not make a case for lacking objectivity in science, it's just a facile attempt to cast suspicion on it.

Quote:
We all know what the average public quality of mind is, now don't we?


I don't deign to speak for the "we" you reference,

Quote:
When science is reliant on moneys that come from a population still believing in ghosts and UFO's, one must wonder at how many theories are denied utterance because they lack absolute substantiation.


I like substantiation, and have been asking you for yours only to be met with ranting and insults.

Quote:
When one considers the effects of scientific specialization and the state of the educational system that teaches what to think but not how, one wonders at the objectivity and critical thinking of those engaged in science.


A big part of critical thinking is avoiding logical fallacy. Another big part is clarity of thought.

Quote:
Scientists are human as well and so subject to the same psychological pressures and cultural influences, everybody else is.
Furthermore science is under the jurisdiction of the state, with its own motives and prejudices.


And your point would be? << the prevailing theme of this exchange IMO
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2004 01:35 am
Asherman wrote:
This is one of Craven's "hot buttons.


Asherman,

My lacking formal education is not a "hot button" for me. It (education of all varieties) is, however, a goal.
0 Replies
 
Wanderer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2004 08:03 am
Reply2
Craven de Kere
Quote:
So, pray tell, what is your definition of "product of natural selection" which, in turn, holds the key to the definition of "natural".
All those that predate mans appearance.

Quote:
I don't think you do. Nor do I think you can. But I'd be happy to hear how you think you do this.

Afterward, I'd be interested in knowing the basis on which you deem this exclusion worthy. After all, the next question is whether the mind is unatural.
I don't think the mind is "unnatural" but since many of the products of the mind go against pre-existing mechanics, I ?'arbitrarily' refer to them as "unnatural".

Quote:
I know, but I am asking for the basis for this distinction.
The basis of this distinction I mention above, its purpose is to delineate between environments pre-existing mans appearance and out of his control and those that became a product of his actions and thoughts.

Quote:
And upon what do you base the validity of this distinction? This is a textbook naturalistic fallacy, and you need to be able to demonstrate the validity of your construct, simply calling it "natural" and "unatural" according to an arbitrary definition does not make your case.

Anything that would not be accessible to a creature or an environment without the intervening hand of something else that usurps natural environments by picking and choosing elements to create an alteration within them, is what I refer to as ?'unnatural'.

Yes, everything within the universe can be considered as part of nature.
This distinction between manmade and non manmade environments is used for the purposes of demonstrating how human intervention itself is responsible for the ensuing results.

Quote:
It's not an axiomatic delineation, as it's eminently arguable that it is simply impossible to escape natural selection. It only evolves to work on different criteria.
Exactly, we can say that the process of evolution is itself evolving.
Mans intellect has been such a powerful creation within pre-existing rules that it now warps or diverts the rules.
With many benefits but with many dire consequences also.

Quote:
Person A = physically strong
Person B = beautiful

Person C = Protects person B, because of Person B's beauty

Person D may describe the transaction as protecting the weak and a divergenve from "natural selection", but the metric of beauty and its influence is part of nature and is a power unto itself.
A parasite, as you describe beauty to be here, is not powerful but only protected because it offers something to the strong and expendable when it ceases to do so.
What is powerful relies on nothing else but its own self.

There are many strategies utilized in nature for the weak to find protection, you mentioned one.

Power can be measured by how self sufficient it is, anything reliant on something else is not powerful.
Now you will notice that there is nothing which does not depend on something else in our universe or at least within the realm of our human perceptions, which only proves that there is no known instance of absolute power but only degrees of it.

The degree of power something possesses can only be perceived by the degree it is self-reliant and independent.

The weaker something is, the larger the sacrifice is necessitated for it to maintain existence.

Quote:
I'd love to hear your substantiation for this claim. Do note that said ailments occur at a lesser rate today than in less populated ages.

Population density can contribute to many ailments merely because of its relationship with proximity, but to make the case for a causative link of the nature you describe is to ignore more significant causative links.
These "more significant causative links"-which you neglect to mention- can be traced back to population density and civilization.

Take some of your own advice and substantiate your arguments against me.

Quote:
Man is a part of nature, as are mans' interventions. Mans' interventions can be shown to have lessened said ailments so you will have a hard time making such a simplistic case.
Here again perspective comes into play.

I would say that pre-existing ailments produced in pre-existing environments have certainly declined, but through mans intervention new ones have been added to the list, which makes the intervention of man once more, into infinity, a necessary game of catch-up.
We can say that the ailments caused by malnutrition and bad hygiene have been eradicated, in the first world, but in their place, through mans intervention, the ailments of obesity and heart disease have been added.

In the first set of ailments I find a ?'natural' causation, derived from ?'natural environmental conditions; in the second set I find ailments derived from mans intervention on these pre-existing environments and so they can be said to be unnatural for a species evolved to physically exist under different circumstances.

Mans physical body is a product of evolution designed to exist in low fat, low calorie environments.
With mans dominance over nature, an artificial overabundance has created a confrontation between mans natural predisposition to consume and to be attracted to fats and sugars, because his dietary inclination are a product of natural environments, and his inclinations to maintain physical health by fighting these natural inclinations or by intervening upon them with artificial means.

But mans sexual drives have also been suppressed or diverted.
Man is by nature a sexually promiscuous creature.
Civilization and the need for resources and working hands has made it necessary to keep large populations placated and controlled.
This made it essential to take away female sexual power, so as to enable all males to procreate and through this to remain disciplined members of the system and invested members in it. This also results in the curbing of male sexual aggression which can disrupt social cohesion and stability.
Here we can see how natural drives have been corrupted or diverted through a series of moral and social codes of behaviour and how the authoritarian control of institutions replaces natural modes of behaviour with newer more socially acceptable ones.

But this does not mean that complete adherence to these new rules can be completely maintained, as levels of morbid obesity and adultery attests to.
This is because natural evolution occurs at a slower pace than human social development, causing a disjunction between innate drives and cultural ones.

Quote:
In short, your test of the null hypothesis fails because it again relies on the interpretation of "weakness" in the perception.
Reality, as Kant said, is an interpretation of sensual phenomena.

This is my interpretation.
What is yours?

Quote:
You have proposed an axiom. You need to substantiate it or ad qualifiers to address its flawed absolutism and reliance on your interpretation of weakness.
My axioms rest on a bedrock of personal experiences and observations.
Where do yours come from?

Quote:
Only if you think sacrifice is always the opposite of save.
Remaining ambiguous is a method of appearing like you are saying something when you are saying nothing.
Again, take your own advice and substantiate your arguments.

Let's see: If I wish to save my body by sacrificing my hand caught in a bear-trap, is this a loss or a gain?

I can say I saved my self, by sacrificing a piece of my self.

In this case the better part is said to have survived by killing a lesser part.
This all depends, of course on what your definitions of ?'better' and ?'lesser' are and what your definition of self is.
Now, since with humans the head is connected with the self, any other part sacrificed for its survival is considered a good price to pay.

Now if we transfer this argument to the subject, the argument can be made that what is lost through human intervention or through human socialization is a reasonable price for what is gained. In this case survival can be considered as superior to individuality and liberty.
Unfortunately human beings (some of them at least), like very few other species, consider survival a secondary concern when juxtaposed against dignity, liberty and honour.

We can say that a canary lives longer in a cage and consider this a good price for its lack of freedom, but can we say it is living ?'naturally' or with the option to experience the full breadth of what it means to be a canary?

We might even say that a dog is more enviable than a wolf when we consider a dog's subjugation to man's will which rewards it with more comfortable living conditions and subsequently longer life-spans. What we cannot say is that it is more noble or dignified when it grovels for table scraps and our attentions

Quote:
By realizing that sacrifice does not always constutute the opposite of save.
This depends on the definition of identity is.
Name one instance where sacrificing is not the opposite of saving and let us dissects it

Quote:
See, now we are getting a clear outline.

1) You consider non-paternal societies to be a "contamination" from a paternal ideal in the human species.

2) Why do you consider the paternal construct an ideal?


No, what is becoming clear is your attempt to corner me in some 'politically-incorrect' position so as to degrade my argument.
In this case that of a male chauvinist.

My definitions of male/female archetypes did not exclude their existence in both genders.
I'm saying the characteristics I label ?'male' are being extricated from both genders.
Obviously since they are to be found predominately in the male sex, it is having a much more profound effect there.

My ideal social construct is neither paternal nor maternal it is a balance of the two.

Quote:
By its nature, individuality is always threatened by masses Wanderer.
My point.


Quote:
The opposite is also true. Think of the "keeping up with the Joneses" soundbyte in comparison to the soundbyte you used.

"Keeping up with the Joneses" forces economic and social participation not a political one.
Most Americans and western man in general, can participate as consumers and as lively social animals but how many care or are aware of the political situations or the world implications?
I've known children in Europe more politically adept than many Americans I've spoken to.

The current close race in the US only proves how pathetically moronic the average American is.

Quote:
I like substantiation, and have been asking you for yours only to be met with ranting and insults.
That's funny, since it was you who first defined my views as "mind farts".
I would say that, in keeping with your metaphor, you are suffering from mental constipation and should air-out your mind a bit.
I suspect you have been force-fed enough garbage to create a blockage there.

rufio
Quote:
"Who" is this ancestor to whom you compare us?
Primordial man.

Quote:
We might also say that cooporation was found to be superior to the lack thereof...
The need for cooperation only exposes weakness.

Quote:
Whence does this "individuality" come, if not from the above-mentioned socialization?
So you consider your self as a product of society and nothinf else?

Quote:
Why is it a weakness to sacrifice a part to save the whole? Or to change and adapt? Is it not equally weak to accept alien ideas into your own belief system as it is to let your own ideas join another?
Yes.
So?
Do you think
I am presenting myself as an example of strength?

Quote:
Why are the creations of man "artificial"? Is man "artificial"?
No the products of his mind are.
Consciousness is based on the limited perspective on phenomena that are interpreted by the mind but never truly known.
Therefore all creations derived from these limited perspectives are based on inaccurate or incomplete sensual interpretations and therefore imperfect.

Quote:
Since when do human beings have a predisposition for "peace and stability"?
They have a predisposition to find peace and stability attractive.
Peace and stability themselves are impossible in this universe.


Quote:
If it is the fault of the modern world and Judeo-Christian ethics that this "degredation," as you say, has happened, than why would the same "degredation" exist in third-world countries? I thought you were going to nostalgicly remenisce about the "noble savage" archetype.
It is true that these same elements exist in other religious and cultural environments, but since I can only draw information from my own I use it as my template.

Quote:
Is man not still the dominant animal in the world today?

As a group, yes; as an individual you wouldn't last a minute out there.
This dominance is having some detrimental effects on the general health of the species.
Can you perceive them?

Quote:
There have always been cultural constraints on sexual expression, most notably on incest, even for the "noble savage".
The difference being one of degree not one of absolutes.

Quote:
Not our personal quality, but our social place. I would think you would have known the difference by now.
For the majority they are one and the same.

Quote:
By this, do you mean "the natural world around us" or "the world that we have built around us"? In the one case, I don't see why you're unhappy, and in ther other, isn't it only natural that we should mirror the things we have built?

First question: Both
Second question: Depends what is mirrored back and if it was truly I that built it and it wasn't built for me by others.

Quote:
Whence come the "natural rules" that ownership has "usurped"?
From nature.
In nature there is no ownership but only a ?'leasing'.
Positions, materials are all constantly contested and not institutionally defended, as in human social environments.

Quote:
Are you saying that we are reshaping our own nature? If you are, than who are you to say that that is a bad thing?
First question: Yes
Second question: I am me, I am human, I am mind.
Who are you to question me, then?

Elitism is what I'm all about.
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2004 08:12 am
Re: Reply2
[quote="Wanderer]Elitism is what I'm all about.[/quote]

Finally, a statement this poor uneducated foraging creature understands completely......... Laughing
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2004 08:12 am
Naw, Craven, the "hot button" I was referring to was that you are young and may see things differently as you get older. There is such great certainty of things when we are young, but in we tend to rethink and our values often shift. I think our fundamental values may stay pretty much the same, it is our perceptions that change. We see things somewhat differently. The experiences of a long life have an impact more profound than the sharp clarity of a young intellect. Most of us never stop growing.

When I was your age, I was just as convinced of the "rightness" of my views as either my son Crumbly Donut, or yourself. You both remind me a lot of myself when I was young. For awhile there I was an in-your-face radical/liberal/pacifist marching and agitating against LBJ's War. Now I've rethought what seemed so simple and clear then. I've changed my mind about Vietnam. Where once I was a Democrat, now I prefer to be called a Federalist. Perhaps I was always a Conservative, but it took half a life to realize it.

As I've said before to you, I think you have a brilliant mind and almost unlimited potential. You do need, I think, the seasoning that comes with a sound formal liberal education. The academic discipline and interchange with students and professors will do you good. I expect that you will find some Phds to be startlingly ignorant, even in their own field. You have already acquired a better knowledge base than many of the students I've done graduate work with.
0 Replies
 
 

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