5
   

BREXIT - "LEAVE!"

 
 
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 10:01 am
(Self) rule (for) Britannia, Britannia rule yourself.

The decision to leave the EU will certainly result in a variety of difficulties for the UK, but with their votes, Brits regained democracy for their nation. In most such efforts, bloodshed is required so whatever the fallout, by historical comparison, it will be mild.

The origins of the EU are based on the devastation caused by a continental history of bloodshed, underscored by WWI and WWII. Entirely sane for Europeans to wish to do something to put an end to such a legacy, however the "solution" was based on cynicism and undemocratic leanings.

The EU is not accountable to citizens in any of its member nations.

This is a fact.

Why is it so?

Let's give the EU Technocrats the benefit of the doubt and assume they are not, at all, concerned about continued employment in cushy jobs. The only remaining conclusion is that they don’t believe average people are capable of making reasonable decisions to guide their nations. That is cynical, and that is undemocratic. It is authoritarian.

So if you line up with the European progressives of the EU for some Pollyanna notion of an United World for Peace, you are fooling yourselves terribly. Instead, you are advocating a form of governance that is based on an in inherent belief that human nature is brutal and if left unbridled it will destroy all in it’s path. Is that what you really think about your family, friends and neighbors? It’s no good saying “I trust my family, friends, and neighbors...but those other brutes...” If you all say the same thing, there aren’t many brutes to worry about.
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 5 • Views: 1,219 • Replies: 21
No top replies

 
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2016 08:35 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Loosely, Finn, I agree.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2016 08:54 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Since I've contibited quite a bit on the other two Brexit-threads, just a response to what
Finn wrote:
The origins of the EU are based on the devastation caused by a continental history of bloodshed, underscored by WWI and WWII.
The European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC ) brought France, Germany, Italy and the Benelux countries together in a community with the aim of organising free movement of coal and steel and free access to sources of production. This treaty is the origin of the institutions as we know them today.

So why was "the "solution" based on cynicism and undemocratic leanings", as you wrote"?
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2016 08:59 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Your rant isn't very coherent, Finn. Let me try to answer all the points that I think you are making.

1) Yes, people voting to leave the EU is an example of democracy. Had the majority of citizens of the UK voted to stay in the EU, that would have also been an example of democracy. To say that one vote would be democratic and another vote would be undemocratic is ridiculous.

2) I don't really understand your point about the origins of the EU or why it is relevant.

3) The EU is accountable to its member states and thus the citizens of its member states.

4) What you say is the "only remaining conclusion" isn't the only remaining conclusion. Your conclusion isn't even a very logical one compared to the other more rational conclusions that could be made.

5) The biggest arguments for staying in the EU were economic arguments. You seem to miss that point completely.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2016 09:04 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
2) I don't really understand your point about the origins of the EU or why it is relevant.
It certainly is relevant insofar as the EEC and later the EU were followers of the European Coal and Steel Community (and the European Atomic Energy Community [EURATOM] to be precise).
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2016 09:06 am
@maxdancona,
Max - I suspect you (And I agree with your 'external' perspective, btw) need to be 'inside' the system to perceive its agenda.

We're done with these '.............'. And what's ahead will blow your mind.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 10:50 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Your rant isn't very coherent, Finn. Let me try to answer all the points that I think you are making.

1) Yes, people voting to leave the EU is an example of democracy. Had the majority of citizens of the UK voted to stay in the EU, that would have also been an example of democracy. To say that one vote would be democratic and another vote would be undemocratic is ridiculous.

I don't know how you missed the point that this vote is an example of democracy overcoming the undemocratic nature of the EU. Obviously the Brits could have democratically decided to put up with undemocratic governance.

2) I don't really understand your point about the origins of the EU or why it is relevant.

Then you don't understand the EU. Walter will agree with me that the origins are relevant even if we disagree why. The move to a unified Europe was based, primarily, on the perfectly understandable desire to put an end to Europe's very long history of brutal and ever escalating warfare. Of course there were economic interests involved, but they were ancillary.

Unfortunately, the masterminds of the EU and its antecedents apparently concluded, perhaps based on WWII alone, that the citizens of Europe couldn't be trusted to steer their nations away from war, and so they have deliberately created an undemocratic system which mirrors the progressive dream: Enlightened technocratic experts make the majority of decisions.


3) The EU is accountable to its member states and thus the citizens of its member states.

On paper perhaps but in practice no. Even though the UK was one of the pillars of the EU, no matter what it's populace might have wanted to happen, unless they convinced a whole lot of Europeans to agree with them, it wouldn't happen.

What democratic power did Greece or the Greek people have?

Despite the notion that the Remain supporters were promoting: We are all Europeans, there remain very distinct differences and interests within the member states. They EU members do not come close to resembling the 50 United States. Part of this is because our Federalist system allows the 50 States a fair degree of autonomy while the EU doesn't allow the same for its members. There is one and only one reason that Germany has so much influence on the EU, and it has nothing to do with democracy and everything to do with economics.

I find this highly ironic since Germany is the country that was most
instrumental in the creation of the EU, based on it's prior bloody history.

4) What you say is the "only remaining conclusion" isn't the only remaining conclusion. Your conclusion isn't even a very logical one compared to the other more rational conclusions that could be made.

If you don't accept the premise that the EU is an undemocratic organization, then you are right, my conclusion is not logical, however, if you do, what is the alternative answer? That they don't want the riffraff to take away all of the excessive perks they enjoy in Strasbourg and Brussels?

5) The biggest arguments for staying in the EU were economic arguments. You seem to miss that point completely.

Sez you. Where in what I've written can you draw a conclusion about what I believe to have been the reason for the Remain vote?

Yes, a major reason was economics based on dire predictions that may or may not come true.

A not inconsequential reason was a desire among a lot of Brits to identify as European. I could be wrong here, but my bet is all of these folks feel warm and fuzzy about progressive ideology.

They were, in large measure, among the elite of the UK in the sense that the ability to move across borders and create business opportunities wherever they wished was very attractive, and possible. What did these benefits mean to a mechanic in Manchester, or a farmer in Yorkshire.

If you don't believe me, read the op-ed section of the Sunday NY Times. In it you will find one article by a 27 year old Brit who clearly loathes the middle class suburban town in which he grew up (Surprise surprise!) and wishes Nature would consume all of the UK and, in effect, wipe out humanity and the scars we have left upon the land. Then this nihilist has the gall to accuse those who voted to Leave, as being nihilists. Frankly I'm amazed the editors of the Times printed this piece. Their standards are obviously worse than even I believe.

You'll also find a piece from a Brit Remainer who declares he is giving up his UK citizenship and seeking Irish citizenship so he can remain European. Along the way he recounts similar intents of his friends and colleagues.

Neither of these pieces had anything to do with economics.

Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 11:01 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
I don't know how you missed the point that this vote is an example of democracy overcoming the undemocratic nature of the EU. Obviously the Brits could have democratically decided to put up with undemocratic governance.
The UK government is elected democratically via parliamentary election.
(The EU doesn't have a government [see: Commission], but the EU-Parliament is elected democratically as well.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 11:05 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Then you don't understand the EU. Walter will agree with me that the origins are relevant even if we disagree why. The move to a unified Europe was based, primarily, on the perfectly understandable desire to put an end to Europe's very long history of brutal and ever escalating warfare. Of course there were economic interests involved, but they were ancillary.
I don't know how you got that. But might be, that you don't understand it? A "framework of an organisation open to the participation of the other countries of Europe" doesn't really mean a 'unified Europe' in my opinion.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 11:07 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Oh please Walter.

Stop trying to promote a fiction.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 11:10 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
On paper perhaps but in practice no. Even though the UK was one of the pillars of the EU, no matter what it's populace might have wanted to happen, unless they convinced a whole lot of Europeans to agree with them, it wouldn't happen.
Perhaps you really aren't aware of the history.
The UK was a member of EFTA. Until they joined the EC in 1973. In 1975, 66% of the British voters voted yes – to stay in the European Community.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 11:10 am
@Walter Hinteler,
So my premise that the EU origins were based on a desire to rid Europe of blood war is incorrect?

How far are you willing to warp the truth to support your position?

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 11:11 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Oh please Walter.

Stop trying to promote a fiction.

Exactly what fiction?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 11:13 am
@Walter Hinteler,
That was then.

So what?

Are you really trying to tell us that if the majority of Brits didn't give a sh*t about the angles of bananas and cukes it would have been so in the UK?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 11:13 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
How far are you willing to warp the truth to support your position?
Truth? I'm only relying to the known facts.
But perhaps you've access to other sources then we've got here?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 11:14 am
@Walter Hinteler,
That the EU is a democratic organization.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 11:17 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Are you really trying to tell us that if the majority of Brits didn't give a sh*t about the angles of bananas and cukes it would have been so in the UK?
Well, those banas. That really is a fiction as has been published hundred times in the last weeks: straight and bendy are not banned by the EU. Commission Regulation 2257/94: Class 1 bananas can have "slight defects of shape" and Class 2 bananas full-on "defects of shape".

But might well be that many prefer to pay the same price for aesthetically not nice looking bananas as for prime ones. They can do so shortly.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 11:20 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
That the EU is a democratic organization.
I can only say that the EU-elections here in Germany were democratic.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 11:45 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I'm totally aware that e.g. how in Germany civil servants are not elected and neither the chancellor nor any other member of government as well, that this must be seen undemocratic by e.g. an American.

But our elections are general, direct, free, equal and secret, though these mixed-member proportional elections might be seen not democratic by some.
Same that only elected lawmakers elect the chancellor and the chancellor decides who becomes a member of her/his government.

Thus, we don't really complain about the EU-elections - it's done the same way.

Civil servants,well that really must be confusing: we've got two kinds (but only in the view from outside): civil servants ("Beamte") and employees.
Same as with the EU in our eyes.
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2016 09:14 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Rubbish - It is Pre-selected.
When all the horses belong to the same owner the odds are stacked.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Scotland the brave - Question by Tes yeux noirs
Brexit and the stock market - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Brexit and the stock market - Question by cicerone imposter
Notes from my favorite conservative - Discussion by ossobucotemp
Where is our Lord Buckethead? - Question by tsarstepan
Tariffs outside the single market - Question by Ozymandias42
 
  1. Forums
  2. » BREXIT - "LEAVE!"
Copyright © 2017 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 10/17/2017 at 10:41:51