8
   

einstein's clock tower

 
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2016 08:27 pm
@TomTomBinks,
OK TomTom, I think I understand your question. This is something that is a little counterintuitive. The issue is how we measure how fast time is moving.

Let's imagine that we live in Mark Noble's Universe (and I suppose I should listen to what Mark has to say about this example since I am invoking his belief system) where time is not relative.

Now let's imagine that God, who is omnipotent in Mark's universe (at least I think he is but stick with me for a bit) decides to cut down the rate of time by one half.

The question is how would we know? I recognize the passing of time by how quickly the Earth revolves, by how many times my heart beats, by how quickly I can cross a room or how quickly ideas happen. All of these things move along with my clock... which ticks one time every second.

If God slows down time to half speed, how would we ever know? The clock would still click at regular intervals in what I would assume was still a second. I could cross the time in the same number of clock ticks. My heart would be beating in the same number of clock ticks and I could have the same number of thoughts in the same number of clock ticks.

The answer is (I hate giving away the answer) is that to us... living in Mark's Universe where there are no frames of reference, there is no way we could tell if time slows down. In fact the very phrase "time slows down" means absolutely nothing.

Do you follow this so far?
TomTomBinks
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2016 08:28 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I don't think so.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2016 08:30 pm
@maxdancona,
Does time slow down if the rotation of the earth slows down?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2016 08:49 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Does time slow down compared to what?

To answer this question, you have to specify two frames of reference... and then you have to tell me which frame of reference to answer from.

As I have said before (and attempted to explain) the phrase "does time slow down" has no meaning unless you are measuring it from another frame of reference (i.e. comparing it to a clock in a second frame of reference).

To try to make this meaningful, I am imagining a person who is in a car driving in a West direction (the opposite directly of the Earth's rotation) in the exact correct speed (about 1000 mph if we are at the equator) so that the driver would continue at the same position that someone would be if the earth weren't rotating.

A person in this car (I believe... I am not taking the time to fully do the math on this) would say that the clock of the person standing on the Earth would be going very slightly slower.

The point is that in order to ask questions about time dilation... you need to understand that any meaningful question about time dilation requires you to compare a clock in one frame of reference with a clock in a second frame of reference.

By the way... this is a really small effect.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2016 11:48 pm
@TomTomBinks,
I think you are missing the point that in Special Relativity there is no acceleration making all 'points of view' equivalent, whereas in General Relativity, only one body experiences acceleration, and which eliminates equivalence. Failure to understand that difference causes confusion about 'the twin paradox' which is in fact only 'paradoxical if you assume equivalence of 'points of view'.
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 03:43 am
@TomTomBinks,
Einstein was bought and paid for, long b4 you chose to accept h
is bollux regurgitation of his puppet-masters.
Clever bloke, nonetheless - IQ 180ish.
Chose to preserve himself - .
Don't blame him, for his purchaseability - Scary world, back then.
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 03:54 am
@maxdancona,
Time doesn't MOVE! It is a measurement of movement.
Please wake-up.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  2  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 04:00 am
@maxdancona,
I think you've done well. Kind of like describing a symphony without notes.
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 04:00 am
@cicerone imposter,
Time is not a physical thing - It is a measurement!
LIKE AN INCH, METRE, FURLONG, ATOMETRE, OUNCE, KILO.

F my sideways with a dead pig.

Anyway - Be well, y'all.
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 04:02 am
@maxdancona,
You THINK?

Through what medium - I ask?
0 Replies
 
TomTomBinks
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 08:27 am
@fresco,
Quote:
experiences acceleration

That's what I was missing. Thank you.
0 Replies
 
TomTomBinks
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 08:35 am
@maxdancona,
I understand, thank you.
I don't ever want to live in Mark Noble's universe!
TomTomBinks
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 08:37 am
@mark noble,
Who exactly was pulling Einstein's strings?
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 09:04 am
@TomTomBinks,
The important question about Mark's universe is what does it mean to slow down time. If God (or any omnipotent being) slowed down time... meaning time slows down for everything including clocks and the human mind... how would we detect it?

There are movies where time stops for everyone except for one character. When time starts again everyone except for the one character is oblivious to the fact that time had stopped.

Notice that without the character for whom time didn't stop... time can't stop for all of the other characters.

When Mark says "time is a measurement", I think I agree with him (on this one point). Of course the way you measure time is a clock (or something else that happens predictably that can act as a clock). This goes along with my point... in order for you to measure the clocks in one frame of reference, you need a clock in another frame of reference to compare it to. You can't measure clocks by themselves.

Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 09:36 am
@maxdancona,
Pretty good explanations so far. Let me bounce off you since this is not something I 'know'.

Could gravity and its effect on space/time explain these effects.

Since the mass of an object increases with velocity, could it be the effects of gravity that slow time down? If the mass of the flywheel(?) in a mechanical watch or crystal oscillator in a digital watch increases, it will slow down its time in a way we can easily understand.

There is obviously an equivalent effect on our perception of time since it wouldn't look like the watches were slowing down to us. (The mass of us and our spaceship would be increasing too).

Which makes me conclude that time must stop completely in a black hole.

So maybe time is just relative to the mass in our locality? This would eliminate the mind **** of deciding which point of reference to use. If earth orbited a sun with 100 times the mass of Sol, would time run slower?

Sorry, just gathering mind wool...
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 10:01 am
@Leadfoot,
Time does slow down in relation to gravity. This is known already, and used in orbital and GPS calculations.

And Singularities do not feel the flow of time.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 10:15 am
@rosborne979,
So you are saying the increased mass of the orbiting satalites accounts for the need of time compensation in them and velocity is only a confusing factor.

That's easy. So why all the confusion about reference points, etc.? Mass is mass no matter where or how it got there or how fast it is moving.

We should be able to predict the rate of time around any mass without regard to velocity.

But wait a minute (haHa) if we get in our warp speed ship and leave the mass of the universe, time will go infinitely fast after we slow down. Well, almost, there is still the resting mass of the ship.

Or maybe the mass of a body at rest is zero...
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 10:17 am
@Leadfoot,
For Physics students, Frames of Reference are not that difficult to understand.

It takes a smart student (with a semester of calculus or two) a few weeks to get used to the idea... and then it is just math. Physics students are trained to be aware of which Frame of reference they are using.

It is really not that difficult compared. Once you have taken a few weeks to get used to it becomes natural. If you understand the basic ideas, it makes sense (even though time dilation at first seems counterintuitive. We all start thinking about things happening on trains and understand how the principal that all inertial frames of reference are equally valid. Then we are given light flashes (or lightning strikes) on trains to understand the problem with simultaneity. General relativity... where all non-inertial frames of reference are also equally valid takes a little while to get used to.

The "mind f***" is Quantum mechanics which doesn't make sense no matter how much you wrestle with the math. No one really understands Quantum Mechanics.

Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 10:27 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
It takes a smart student (with a semester of calculus or two)
Damn, leaves me out :-)
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 10:31 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
Or maybe the mass of a body at rest is zero...
And from that I would have to conclude that the entire universe is going somewhere fairly fast...

Point of reference anyone?
 

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