The existence of God

@BillRM,

Well, that is in fact how the story goes in 'the book' as well.
Why so incredulous ?

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Once more the god in the bible is an evil god on the face of it in human terms.

You assert this without explaining your logic. You're making assumptions about the relationship of evil to God and what criteria should be used to deem God good or evil based on the existence of evil in the creation.

Quote:

Moses who when he first become aware that his people had misbehavior when he was on the mountain with god the first time order his supporters to kill at random among his own people until his supporters was too tired to move their swords?????

Which verse are you taking about here?

Quote:

Thou shalt not kill did not apply at that point and even later after he replaced the tablets when his people wipe out a whole city full of people who only crime was living on lands they wish to own.

Moses received the laws. If people failed to keep the law, does that make the law any less valid? The speed limit was 55mph in the 1980s but many people didn't obey it, so does that mean it was wrong to limit speed to 55mph by law?

Quote:

Moses Breaks the Tablets
…27He told them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each of you men is to fasten his sword to his side, go back and forth through the camp from gate to gate, and slay his brother, his friend, and his neighbor.’” 28The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people fell dead. 29Afterward, Moses said, “Today you have been ordained for service to the LORD, since each man went against his son and his brother; so the LORD has bestowed a blessing on you this day.”…
Berean Study Bible

If you read further, it says,

Quote:

"30The next day Moses said to the people, "You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin."

31So Moses went back to the LORD and said, "Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold.

32But now, please forgive their sin--but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written."

33The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.

You are taking things out of context and reducing them to a superficial level instead of reading the whole passage and searching for the deeper meaning.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

If the punishment for going over 55 speed is not only your death by law but most of your family including children that would be an evil law on it face.

The old testament god is an evil god an knowing that how could anyone worship him is beyond me an have always been beyond me even as a young child.

Thanks god that such a sick being is only the dream of sick priests an does not exist anymore then all of the others gods that mankind had come up with.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

If the punishment for going over 55 speed is not only your death by law but most of your family including children that would be an evil law on it face.

You keep taking things out of context. The 55mph example was to illustrate how a law can be good, yet people still might not obey it. That doesn't make the law wrong/bad.

Now you are changing the topic to the severity of punishment with regard to the crime. What's your point? That humans suffer worse than we act? When someone kills someone else, they die. It is simple cause and effect. What is more fair than that?

You drive 55mph into a pole and your face hits the airbag at 55mph plus whatever speed the airbag pops out of the dash. How can you call a 60mph punch in the face unjustly harsh punishment for crashing into a pole when the consequences were determined by the laws of physics/nature?

Quote:

The old testament god is an evil god an knowing that how could anyone worship him is beyond me an have always been beyond me even as a young child.

The Bible teaches about general principles using stories. You have to study the stories to decipher what they are conveying in terms of deeper meaning.

Your reading is defying the purpose of the scripture, which is not to react against the harshness. It would be like if you rejected the story of the boy who cried wolf because of the harshness of the wolves winning at the end.

Quote:

Thanks god that such a sick being is only the dream of sick priests an does not exist anymore then all of the others gods that mankind had come up with.

I appreciate the tenderness of your heart, but you're making a mistake by reacting to these stories with rejection. If you are able to read/study/reflect more deeply to discover the valuable meanings and lessons, you will find the stories beneficial and not just fear-mongering.

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@jwagner,

jwagner wrote:

Seems legit, what do you think the purpose of life is then? If all we do is live and then die with no hope for afterlife then what reason do I have to live? or is there an afterlife?

So you think that the universe owed you an afterlife or at the very least a purpose an otherwise your life is pointless??????

How odd but feel free to cut your throat as there is no god or purpose and there need not be.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

jwagner wrote:

Seems legit, what do you think the purpose of life is then? If all we do is live and then die with no hope for afterlife then what reason do I have to live? or is there an afterlife?

Life is its own purpose. Look at an apple tree, for example. It lives to do all the things it does as a tree: grow, make shade, absorb CO2, make apples, feed the apples to animals who spread its seeds.

You as a living thing, a human, have purpose of human life. Human life is a bit more complex because you have a very strong mental ability to choose between many different life paths and actions in various ways.

But everything you do with your energy, effort, money, etc. has effects; so you should choose to influence the world in the best way that you can, and to harm it as little as possible; and that included not harming yourself, because you are part of it.

There is afterlife because consciousness is fundamental in the universe. We have a very concentrated form of consciousness and strong, complex minds; so we disregard lower/subtler forms of consciousness, but all living things have some level of consciousness, and thus it is logical that there is also even subtler and more diffuse consciousness throughout non-living systems.

So when an organism dies, all its constituent aspects must continue on in some form other other, so why not the consciousness as well? You may lose your memory and/or mind, senses, etc. after your body dies, but somehow that soul that experiences itself as you in your current form will continue on to experience some aspect of the universe in some way, so you can only hope that whatever experiences happen to your soul after your body dies are more heavenly than hellish (and of course there are religions available to you that you are already familiar with that you can go to for guidance, e.g. the Bible and people who study it and offer counsel to anyone who is sincerely seeking it).

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@jwagner,

Yes.

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@jwagner,

Yes

1 Reply

@cj1000,

Dave's not here

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@jwagner,

You have no further to look than yourself!

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God cares for us, and that matters much to us, it is our hope. God is over all the universe, with unlimited attention, and so God cares for all life in the universe. God made it possible for there to be the universe with life in it and it being sustained. And so, we should care for life too, and not limit love or compassion, as we still depend on God who shows it.

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@FredBquick,

Pioneering physicist Sir James Jeans wrote: “The stream of knowledge is heading toward a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like ‘A GREAT THOUGHT’ than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter, we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter. (R. C. Henry, “The Mental Universe”; Nature 436:29, 2005)

1 Reply

@The Anointed,

When there is no created eye to see, when there is no created ear to hear, when there is no created nose to smell, when there is no created tongue to taste, when there is no created nerve ends to feel, where there is no observer, there is no physical universe, only a swirling cloud of expanding wave-particles bombarding each other forming clumps only to be torn apart again.

1 Reply

@The Anointed,

Glad to see you posting again Smile

The Anointed wrote:

When there is no created eye to see, when there is no created ear to hear, when there is no created nose to smell, when there is no created tongue to taste, when there is no created nerve ends to feel, where there is no observer, there is no physical universe

You seem to be implying if the created eye, ear, nose, tongue, and nerve ends are in existence, IE the observer, then it is the observer that is creating the physical universe ?

I'm confused as this conflicts with something else that you have posted many times, something I'm quite taken with

The Anointed wrote:

In fact, it has now been revealed that matter is no more than an illusion.

Quantum physicists discovered that so called physical atoms are made up of vortices of energy that are constantly spinning and vibrating, each one radiating its own unique energy signature.

If you observe the composition of an atom with a microscope you would see a small, invisible tornado-like vortex, with a number of infinitely small energy vortices called quarks and photons. These are what make up the structure of the atom. As you focused in closer and closer on the structure of the atom, you would see nothing, you would observe a physical void.

The atom has no physical structure, we have no physical structure, physical things really don’t have any physical structure! Atoms are made out of invisible energy, not tangible matter.

1 Reply

@steve reid,

And where do you see any supposed conflict between the two. When a tree falls where there is no created ear or receptor to capture the silent shock-waves and convert those invisible waves into sound in the brain. Plus the molecules that are released from aromatic fruits, which molecules are only clumps of invisible atoms which are only the clumping of non-physical wave particles have neither smell or taste without the created nose and tongue, which capture those molecules and convert them to electric pulses which are sent to the created brain where they are translated to smell and taste, etc, And that which you perceive as matter is no more than invisible atoms, which have no physical structure, physical things really don’t have any physical structure! Atoms are made out of invisible energy, not tangible matter.

1 Reply

@The Anointed,

The Anointed wrote:

where there is no observer, there is no physical universe

The Anointed wrote:

physical things really don’t have any physical structure! Atoms are made out of invisible energy, not tangible matter.

So, observer or not, there is no physical universe. Then why bias your statement with the 'no created eye', 'no created ear', 'no observer'

It seemed reasonable to infer from

The Anointed wrote:

where there is no observer, there is no physical universe

that 'where there is an observer, there is a physical universe'

1 Reply

@steve reid,

physical things really don’t have any physical structure! Atoms are made out of invisible energy, not tangible matter. There is no physical universe without the observers and their created senses, which are created from the invisible wave-particles that are the quantum of the electromagnetic energy from which this supposedly physical universe is created. Which supposed physical universe is created by the senses of the observers who are created from atoms, which have no physical structure, so, physical things really don’t have any physical structure! Atoms are made out of invisible energy, not tangible matter.

Without the so-call physical senses which are not physical at all there can be no sound, no smell, no taste, no physical universe at all, only the "GREAT THOUGHT" that has manifested itself as this supposedly physical universe.

Pioneering physicist Sir James Jeans wrote: “The stream of knowledge is heading toward a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like ‘A GREAT THOUGHT’ than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter, we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter. (R. C. Henry, “The Mental Universe”; Nature 436:29, 2005)

1 Reply

@The Anointed,

The Anointed wrote:

physical things really don’t have any physical structure! Atoms are made out of invisible energy, not tangible matter

I can accept that this may be true

The Anointed wrote:

There is no physical universe without the observers and their created senses, which are created from the invisible wave-particles that are the quantum of the electromagnetic energy from which this supposedly physical universe is created. Which supposed physical universe is created by the senses of the observers who are created from atoms, which have no physical structure

Then even with observers (you/me) there is no physical universe, only our illusion of a physical universe, given to us by our perceptions which are distortions of that which exist outside the mind.

The Anointed wrote:

Without the so-call physical senses which are not physical at all there can be no sound, no smell, no taste no physical universe at all, only the "GREAT THOUGHT" that has manifested itself as this supposedly physical universe.

100% agree with the part in bold

The Anointed wrote:

Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter, we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter.

This is too much of a leap for me, Is this where God comes in ?

1 Reply

@steve reid,

A singularity is a region of space-time in which matter is crushed so closely together that the gravitational laws explained by general relativity break down. In a singularity, the volume of space is zero and its density is infinite. Scientists believe such a singularity exists at the core of a black hole, which occurs when a super-massive sun reaches the end of its life and implodes.

General relativity also demands such a singularity must exist at the beginning of an expanding universe.

The mass entering a monstrous Black Hole stretches the rubbery fabric of space-time and creates within the revolving Black Hole, a swirling tornado-like Worm Hole at the bottom of which worm hole, all that we perceive as matter is torn to pieces until all that remains is the indestructible photons, which are crushed into a singularity, wherein the volume of space is zero and its density is infinite and where there is no space, there is no momentum and therefore, no time.

Eventually the mass becomes so great that the rubbery fabric of Space-time is torn and create a White Hole, causing the singularity to spatially separate, releasing the photons as they expand out in all directions as a super-hot liquid-like plasma cloud in the trillions upon trillions of degrees and from these bombarding photons=wave particles, which are not particles at all having zero mass, no electric charge, but they do have angular and linear momentum, the next generation of our universe is created.

In 1935, Einstein and physicist Nathan Rosen used the theory of general relativity to elaborate on the idea of black holes and worm holes, proposing the existence of "bridges" through space-time. These bridges connect two different points in space-time, theoretically creating a shortcut that could reduce travel time and distance; Billions of light years to mere kilo-metres.

According to general relativity, the gravitational collapse of a sufficiently compact mass forms a singular Schwarzschild black hole. In the Einstein–Cartan–Sciama–Kibble theory of gravity, however, it forms a regular Einstein–Rosen bridge.

All information gathered in that previous period of universal activity is also swallowed by the Black monster. That information feeds the ever evolving “THOUGHT” that is the mind of the singularity, the divine reality of the universe, the eternal spirit=thought from which all being originates and to which all being must return at the close of each period of universal activity, or rather each generation of the universe.

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@FredBquick,

FredBquick wrote:

God cares for us, and that matters much to us, it is our hope. God is over all the universe, with unlimited attention, and so God cares for all life in the universe. God made it possible for there to be the universe with life in it and it being sustained. And so, we should care for life too, and not limit love or compassion, as we still depend on God who shows it.

This God sounds wonderful, where can I find him. The God I'm reading about at present comes across as an unhinged homicidal maniac, who gets his jollies by slaughtering his creations

1 Samuel 15:3, God ordered the massacre of Men, Women, Children and Babies

Exodus 12:29, God killed all the firstborn Sons

This God obviously didn't care much for the millions of people he slaughtered in the OT

1 Reply

The existence of God

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