54
   

How can a good God allow suffering

 
 
neologist
 
  3  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2016 10:35 am
@Setanta,
Let's go back here for a second.
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
Are you disputing natural selection ???
neologist wrote:
No. Speciation.
Setanta wrote:
. . . Speciation was not a part of the remarks to which i responded. . .
Duly noted. But I was not responding directly to you. Sorry if I did not make that clear.
neologist wrote:
True, but speciation is the form of evolution to which I take exception. See my post here

I apologise if I did not discern your defense of adaptation.
Setanta wrote:
The more specific my statements become, the more vague your defense becomes. And you certainly do love a straw man. You have been referring to speciation, not me.
Yes, but as I said above, I have not been responding only to you. BTW, I thought you liked straw men.
Setanta wrote:
Speciation is not a cut and dried matter--no responsible biologist who knows her business says that it is. Speciation can occur from sexual isolation--one group being cut off from another--as well as genetic drift which eventually results in an inability to interbreed. From an online article in the journal Science:

Quote:
Brown bears—some of which are called grizzlies—and polar bears are closely related and are even able to interbreed.


That article is concerned with the diet of polar bears--but it serves to show that speciation can occur through the sexual isolation of part of a species, and that the two parts of a species can remain sexually viable, while occupying different niches, and having radically different food sources.
Farmer, take note.
Setanta wrote:
But you're just attempting to move the goal posts again.
Perhaps you should have surveyed the field conditions in advance to check the location of posts.
Setanta wrote:
And it is hilarious that you suggest an equivalence between holy rollers and scientists.
Not all of either group. But many members of both are indeed laughable.
Setanta wrote:
Holy rollers start from a premise--that there is a god--for which they provide zero evidence. You have not addressed at all the fatal weakness of the "god did it" crew, and their penchant for employing the "god of the gaps" technique.
I was not attempting to mount an epistemological proof for the existence of God, merely to suggest that many evolutionists seem to have what seems to be a superstitious aversion to the possibility of God.
Setanta wrote:
At no time have i "proclaimed" that anything i've said must be considered axiomatic.
I don't believe I mentioned you in particular. But, if the shoe fits . . .
Setanta wrote:
Your rhetoric is a mess, and your claim to rely upon and adhere to the naturalistic scientific method more and more implausible.
Your objections duly noted.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2016 10:37 am
@farmerman,
See my response above.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2016 02:51 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
Natural selection works upon disctint mutations that are pseudo random,
Ah.. Very mysterious terms here. What, pray tell, are pseudo random mutations?
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2016 02:58 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
yet the argument seems to disappear that you guys have posted about your denial about evolution of whales in 20 to 40 MILLION years.
I'm not at all sure what you are saying here but my argument hasn't disappeared at all. All things considered, I don't think that such an evolution is possible in even 100 million years.

Quote:
Always like your "evidence-free ID" arguments separate so they dont collide with each other eh?
I do engage in these evolution arguments from time to time, but they are only peripherally related to ID. The core of what ID is based on I described earlier. I see no separation or collisions though.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2016 04:53 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
I don't think that such an evolution is possible in even 100 million years.
so by your admission of "I think", youve yielded to ignorance, right?
Why not get some vertebrate paleo papers on whales and llearn a bit more. Then you will be able to respond with a higher basis for an opinion.
I love to see you at a conference and open with that comment.

The obvious follow up would be "Why do you "believe " such is the case"??
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2016 04:54 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
I see no separation or collisions though
Then you are being purposely obtuse.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2016 07:36 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Leadfoot Quote:
"I see no separation or collisions though"

Then you are being purposely obtuse.
So you won't allow me my own estimation of my own thoughts?

Whatever..
0 Replies
 
vansdad
 
  2  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2016 01:01 am
@SawyerMentink,
We have to look beyond the suffering. First, human's probably cause most of it themselves. But often through suffering and disaster the best in human nature comes out. To believe this life will never have trials and tribulations is to believe in an incomplete life. Like everything in this life, there is much more below the surface and pain and suffering is no different. If we experience good then how can we expect to never experience bad. It is so unrealistic and shallow to expect a life of perfection if God exists.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2016 03:11 am
@neologist,
What a slime-ball response. Like all of the god botherers, you're fundamentally dishonest. What a waste of time it is to talk with religious flim-flam artists.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2016 03:17 am
Setanta wrote:
Replication, indirectly, both in the fossil record and in the world we inhabit--the peppered moth being a classic example of the principle of natural selection observed in nature in the lifetimes of millions of observers. Falsification--show that it can't have happened that way, and you're on the way, but it still won't authorize your holy roller explanation. Macro-evolution simply refers to time scales and more widespread populations, don't try to hobble my response in advance. Basically, people like you attempt to say that if someone can't satisfy your "god of the gaps" objections, you get to come up with that "god did it" BS.


neologist wrote:
You should really leave this to farmer. He at least can talk the talk. There is a huge difference between adaptation and speciation. The peppered moth is still a moth. My spaniel can still make puppies with a dachshund.


That was the sequence of posts with which you introduced the topic of speciation into the conversation with me. Now you're trying to suggest that i was attempting to horn-in on a conversation you were having with FA. Leaving aside the snotty remark about what i should "leave to FM," that's insulting and it's dishonest. It is also, sadly, typical of your rhetorical style. I reserve, of course, the right to point out when you're peddling BS. Which is most of the time.
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2016 10:42 am
@Setanta,
Do you honestly believe I would insinuate you were horning in on another conversation? Were that the case, I should be taken to task for horning in on the sub topic presented by Ros, who horned in on the OP, etc. I assumed you were including my exchange with FA in your response. I read too hastily and answered in confusion.

Now that you've explained your perception of the thread diversions, I am sorry for the comment I made about farmer, though I think we should all recognize him as the resident expert in natural history.

That being said, I have always valued your input. I may disagree, but I can generally follow the rationale of your arguments.

Have a good day.
0 Replies
 
anthonypameladp
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2016 10:10 am
How can a good God allow suffering? A great way to look at this is to think of a parent who allows a child to go through a painful surgery. The parent is thinking of the childs future life being much better witout the illness. So our Creator is allowing time for humans to get to know Him. Which is like the surgy, painful but what a wonderful future He is going to bring about! At that time there will be no wicked and an abundance of peace - Psalm 37:10- 11 & 29. This is God’s will for the earth as we pray for in the Lords prayer, Matthew 6:9- 10.
0 Replies
 
yellowdog
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2016 08:51 am
@SawyerMentink,
Every child should have a training in suffering and in the same time have a good upbringing in much love and trust, understanding and in the universal fact that the gods are not really omnipotent though they usually get their will done in time. Time is an ally of you in your suffering, and in Heaven they view time as something differnet than a span that it takes you to move from A to B or from one hour to the next or from one lifetime to the next one upstairs. Time is not such a movement of things out of our control, and confusing to us and making our brains work too hard. Time instead is a door where deities come out of to do their work on Earth. And time is something like love because it is spiritual like all other things as well. If you are suffering, check the people you love and check your god and seek spirit. With spirit you will find your things and also keep the faith in a God who has no exercises for you if you suffer, but who instead concentrates on healing and liberating you. Although it must be said that you need to have found your own god for that. Your own god is always with and it needn't be the Allah of your local community or the Christ of your local church. We all have different gods waiting for us and as you already know there are many Allah spirits and many Christ spirits and you needn't be chained to one of them you don't trust. These are spirits innocent from crimes, but like with music you need to find your own music and like with life you need to find your own way. Search for the god who walks the long mile with you, who doesn't hurry you to work against your will and who strengthens your little pride about your accomplishments. We live our lives like candles in the wind sometimes, so invite your god to your home where the candle wont burn out so easily.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2016 08:59 am
So, an innocent baby that gets tortured and starved to death by crazed adults is just being schooled to love god's mercy.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2016 10:28 am
@edgarblythe,
I always go back to the world flood that killed so many innocent people - including babies.
How any christian can reconcile that bastardly deed to a loving god is an oxymoron.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2016 12:11 pm
@cicerone imposter,
If you follow the story, everyone else but Noah's family had gone irretrievably bad. Since that was the state after many generations you would expect the children to be the same. Being God probably gives you an advantage in foreseeing things like that.

If you are going to use a story from the bible, use the whole thing.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2016 12:58 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

If you follow the story, everyone else but Noah's family had gone irretrievably bad. Since that was the state after many generations you would expect the children to be the same. Being God probably gives you an advantage in foreseeing things like that.

If you are going to use a story from the bible, use the whole thing.

Babies had gone "irretrievably bad"?
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2016 01:03 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

If you follow the story, everyone else but Noah's family had gone irretrievably bad. Since that was the state after many generations you would expect the children to be the same. Being God probably gives you an advantage in foreseeing things like that.

If you are going to use a story from the bible, use the whole thing.


Yeah. Them babies that were in the womb brought it on themselves.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2016 08:43 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
Babies had gone "irretrievably bad"?

Come on guys. You have to pretend there is a God if you are going to critique the story. I mean if you reject that premise, it's not possible to discuss how good or evil he might be.

If you are God, creator of the universe and time itself, it would be easy to run the clock forward and see just how they would turn out.

And before you scoff at the idea of time travel, consider that theoretical physicists now say there is no reason time cannot be run either forwards or backwards. They say the math proves it so they would have no problem with a god that could do that.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2016 09:16 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
theoretical physicists now say there is no reason time cannot be run either forwards or backwards.


Theoretical is right! But, they're not logical. Our time is based on our sun.
0 Replies
 
 

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