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Christian discussion

 
 
neologist
 
  0  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2016 10:09 am
@oristarA,
oristarA wrote:
. . . So it could be most likely seen as a test of Eve's and Adam's intelligence, rather than a test of sense of justice . . .
Adam was alive long enough to have named all the animals; so he was not fresh off the turnip truck
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2016 10:13 am
@oristarA,
Wow! You are a terrific photographer!
You don't seem to be that old.
0 Replies
 
rrasmussen
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2016 10:38 am
@neologist,
Remember that the Bible says Satan is the father of lies. He could offer the world without actually having the power to do so.
rrasmussen
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2016 11:09 am
@oristarA,
this representation is simply done by man, we don't know that this occurred and second this picture seems to come after the fall were Adam and Eve are ashamed that they have no clothes on! I am not sure why God is wearing clothes but this is an interpretation not an exact description of what occurred or how it looked.
0 Replies
 
rrasmussen
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2016 11:21 am
@oristarA,
Have you ever been punished by your parents? When I was little and my mom told me not to take my brothers toy car and If I didI would be punished for disobedience and not encouraged for the risk! It's the same thing with Adam and Eve, God told them not to eat from the tree but they disobeyed and were punished.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2016 12:40 pm
@TomTomBinks,
TomTomBinks wrote:

My response is a "raspberry". It's when you put your tongue between your lips and blow out to make a rude sound. I wish I knew how to spell it.


Bill Watterson spelt it, "THBPBPTHPT!"
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2016 01:01 pm
@oristarA,
Quote:
So it could be most likely seen as a test of Eve's and Adam's intelligence, rather than a test of sense of justice
I always saw it as a test of how much they wanted the knowledge that the tree offered. Were they willing to give up an eternity of life in ignorance for a shorter life but with that knowledge? Yes, they were pushed in that direction by Satan, but they did made the choice to have knowledge, even at the cost of dying.

I think God wanted them to have that knowledge all along but wanted to give them the choice. The death penalty was there to make sure they took the choice seriously.

0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2016 01:04 pm
@rrasmussen ,
rrasmussen wrote:

Have you ever been punished by your parents? When I was little and my mom told me not to take my brothers toy car and If I didI would be punished for disobedience and not encouraged for the risk! It's the same thing with Adam and Eve, God told them not to eat from the tree but they disobeyed and were punished.


As I've indicated: punish or praise on the condition of being honest. You mom must have told you "not to take your brothers' toy car without proper reason" (with the implication that you can take your brothers' toy car with proper reason, e.g. your brothers use the toy car to hurt an innocent little girl and refuse to take your advice to stop the attack, you can take the toy car away).

Now God should be criticized for being dishonest! No death can be caused by eating or touching the fruit! He lied and should take the responsibility! He's the true sinner here for being a liar.

And at best Eve and Adam made an honest mistake. Because seeking truth is top priority in life.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2016 01:14 pm
@rrasmussen ,
Jesus would certainly have mentioned that, don't you think?
Instead he referred to the "ruler of this world" at John 12:33.
0 Replies
 
rrasmussen
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2016 08:39 pm
@Robert Gentel,
If you don't believe in any God that established this world do you believe then that murder is evil, abortion is evil, stealing another mans wife is evil.....?
TomTomBinks
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2016 10:17 pm
@InfraBlue,
Thanks!
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  4  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2016 11:46 pm
@rrasmussen ,
That is a silly question. One does not have to believe in your god to have a moral compass.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2016 01:38 am
@rrasmussen ,
rrasmussen wrote:

If you don't believe in any God that established this world do you believe then that murder is evil, abortion is evil, stealing another mans wife is evil.....?


For your information:
Theism in Prison
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2016 03:11 am
For your information:

In a viral 2010 blog post for the Wall Street Journal, Ricky Gervais used the data to support his own atheism:

Quote:
You see, growing up where I did, mums didn’t hope as high as their kids growing up to be doctors; they just hoped their kids didn’t go to jail. So bring them up believing in God and they’ll be good and law abiding. It’s a perfect system. Well, nearly. 75 percent of Americans are God-fearing Christians; 75 percent of prisoners are God-fearing Christians. 10 percent of Americans are atheists; 0.2 percent of prisoners are atheists.


He repeated it again on Twitter just a couple of months ago:

Quote:
If all the Atheists & Agnostics left America, they'd lose 93% of The National Academy of Sciences & less than 1% of the prison population.
— Ricky Gervais (@rickygervais) May 1, 2013
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2016 07:31 am
@oristarA,
I get the implication - (that 93% of the NAS scientists are atheists) but beyond that, how does that validate or support Gervais's atheism? (even if that stat was true)

I guess you are saying that God's existence is a matter of votes, and only scientists get to vote?

And since Gervais's post went viral, it must be true?

Sounds very 'sciencey' to me.

Next up: Is Kim Kardasian's butt the best in the world? What say you NAS guys?
onevoice
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2016 08:38 am
@rrasmussen ,
You asked:

Quote:
How can a all powerful and loving God allow for so much suffering??


You said:

Quote:
Genesis 3:3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die" God made it very clear to both Adam and Eve that they could eat any other fruit in the garden but not the one tree in the middle of the garden. We are not sure whether God ate or not but he gave Adam and Eve free will but placing that one tree in the garden. He gave them a chose to obey his commandment or to disobey his commandment and be punished.


There are a couple of things wrong with what you said here.

First: God made it clear to Adam in Genesis 2:16, not 3:3. That was the serpents discussion with Eve.

Second: Eve was not even created yet when God gave Adam the command not to eat or touch the tree of life.

Third: God did not threaten Adam with punishment for eating of or touching the tree. He told Adam he would die. That is no different than me saying to you, "Hey Rasmussen, don't jump off the top of a 10 story building... You will die." Am I therefore responsible for "punishing" you if you jump and die? No. I warned you, in love, because I didn't want you to die. Big difference.

I am just going to throw something out here... I have spent a lot of time studying Genesis lately and have been rolling something around in my head....

What if in Genesis 1: 26 God literally created ALL of "mankind" including Adam and except for Eve just like He created everything else? Then He created the garden, took Adam and put him in it to tend and keep it. Then created Eve as his helper... in a specific descriptive way, as a lesson and sign of the "position" they had both been given, amongst creation... Not above it.

I looked up the translation of "man" in all the instances I am talking about here and it is a loose translation... One word that can mean either mankind as a whole... Or one single man.

Just a thought. Smile
onevoice
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2016 09:23 am
@oristarA,
Quote:
Free will is neutral, not sinful.

And there is no such thing as the original sin.


I couldn't agree more. Religion labeled it sin. It was simply a choice. Now... That specific choice is what led to the choices that lead to sin which ultimately ends in spiritual death, as well as eventual physical death.

Quote:
It's natural for a child, let alone an adult, to explore their environment, to try to think things independently. Eve was a good girl who risked her life to find out the truth about the fruit which God said could lead to death by eating or touching it.


Men and women alike were created this way on purpose.

Quote:
She should have been encouraged and praised for her sincere effort because she didn't intend to violate God's will but tried to discover a new food. Nothing is more natural for humans to seek new foods.


Wowee. This is twisted.

There is NO way on God's green earth that if I tell my child NOT to jump off a 10 story building... Lest they die... And they decide to do it anyway.... That I will be standing there at the top or bottom... Encouraging and praising them for this decision! Say what?!

She wasn't trying to "discover food". She already knew it was food... Food she was told not to eat. She was trying to discover the "secret" behind this specific food... Her curiosity being aroused by the serpent. The secret she discovered... Was the loss of her innocence. That is part of the "death" God was talking about.

Quote:
God should have explicitly declared that touching or eating the fruit is a violation of His law. No such law has been enacted by God and so Eve violated no law and should not be sinned.


What did God do exactly then when He told Adam, "Do not eat of the tree of life..."? That was a rule, correct? You are right, Eve did not technically break a law. She made a choice... THE choice that leads to the sin.

Quote:
God, the Father of Heaven, like humans, also eats food. So a new food should have pleased Him as well. Now Eve, violating no law of God, risked her life to have discovered a new food to eat, shouldn't she be complimented for being cute and brave?


Uh No. Breaking rules isn't "cute" or "brave". It's ignorant and foolish. Rules are in place for a reason.

Quote:
Parents make mistakes, and so does God. Eve's adventure proved that Dad/God was wrong about the fruit. An open-minded, kind-hearted parent should have praised such a child as a genius, rather than reprimanded them as sinful.

And I think, Eve, along with Adam, after eating the fruit, should have joyfully said to God when He appeared: "Dad/God, the fruit is safe to eat. We have found a new food!"

A truly loving Dad/God should have answered with"I'm so proud of you, my children. That is a great discovery."

Instead, the foolish Dad/God abused them and drove them away from home, which led to endless unnecessary suffering of his children.

The only sinner here is Dad/God.


It is sad that God has been so grossly misrepresented to you. I don't blame anyone for being afraid of, or mocking a god like what you are describing. Be assured, your representation of Him couldn't be farther from the truth.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2016 09:29 am
@onevoice,
Quote:
Then He created the garden, took Adam and put him in it to tend and keep it. Then created Eve as his helper... in a specific descriptive way, as a lesson and sign of the "position" they had both been given, amongst creation... Not above it.
A lot of interesting points there. Especially timing of Eve's creation. I single this quote out because it's the only one that doesn't jive with the rest of the book, at least for me.

The 'earth worshiping' religions often say something similar to this by way of trying to be humble and not putting man in too high a place. But everything else in the book just screams that man is the pinnacle of God's creation. Sent us out to have dominion over the earth, etc. When the book says 'God so loved 'the world' that he gave his only begotten son...,' he was talking about man, not this ball of dirt.
Anyway, just my thoughts.
Interesting stuff, keep pondering.
onevoice
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2016 09:48 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
The 'earth worshiping' religions often say something similar to this by way of trying to be humble and not putting man in too high a place. But everything else in the book just screams that man is the pinnacle of God's creation. Sent us out to have dominion over the earth, etc. When the book says 'God so loved 'the world' that he gave his only begotten son...,' he was talking about man, not this ball of dirt.
Anyway, just my thoughts.
Interesting stuff, keep pondering.


I agree with you. Smile I do believe mankind is the pinnacle of God's creation. He designed us quite specifically... With specific qualities, desires, thought processes, behaviors, and even a specific purpose in mind as well, I suspect... Wink lol

Edit:

However, in regards to my comment about Adam and Eve's position amongst creation, verses above creation I was talking in terms of not being above each other... Fellow mankind. As well as the fact their position was still amongst creation, while being in the position of ruling over all of it... Except each other.

I think God did that on purpose. If we had been too far above it all our pride would have carried us away completely... Oh wait... It almost has hasn't it? Lol

0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  3  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2016 10:45 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
That is a silly question. One does not have to believe in your god to have a moral compass.
Good point.
Many nominal christians skip reading this:
Quote:
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. (Romans 2: 14,15)
 

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