Was God creating Satan a good idea?

@cicerone imposter,

I guess, but I'd think it would get old thinking up new ways to say "There is no God!".

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

A little history from page 2 of this thread:
neologist wrote:
. . . If everyone in the world had a built in aversion to wrongdoing, would that be a good thing?
InfraBlue wrote:
By definition it would be a good thing.
neologist wrote:
You could always opt out.
InfraBlue wrote:
Sure, but the whole of mankind will not be able to opt out. It will be forced with harrowing violence upon man for the benefit of a few, according to your dogma.
Where is it said that any will be denied this choice?

According to your dogma, God will wage the battle of Armageddon to end man's self-determination on earth.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
. . . God granted mankind free will and yet arbitrarily limits mankind's choices in regard to mankind's self-determination.
What choices, in particular, do you believe God unjustly withholds?

Ultimately, the choice of self-determination.

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@InfraBlue,

Just because God said those who do not believe in him shall go to hell is still self-determination. Many people live hell on earth; maybe most.

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@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

. . . God granted mankind free will and yet arbitrarily limits mankind's choices in regard to mankind's self-determination.

neologist wrote:

What choices, in particular, do you believe God unjustly withholds?

InfraBlue wrote:

Ultimately, the choice of self-determination.

What aspect(s) of self determination do you feel are being denied?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Just because God said those who do not believe in him shall go to hell. . .

Where does God say that?

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@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

. . . According to your dogma, God will wage the battle of Armageddon to end man's self-determination on earth.

Actually, it will be the beginning of freedom and self determination for mankind, once the toxic influence of Satan and his supporters is removed.
And, really, what has man benefited from the phony self determination provided by Satan?

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Quote:

My hypothesis is that the 1000 years purpose is to accomplish that perfection in understanding of 'Everything' (don't know what else to call it). I think once that understanding is achieved, we would be virtually incorruptible.

Spot on, I agree with you on this one, all that would be counter productive to the restoration process is to be removed.

Quote:

It almost sounds like you are saying Satan has no influence

Not at all my friend. Satan has been the key advocate of his "look after yourself" "do what makes you happy" philosophy. An idea is far more powerful than a person could ever be, and on that level, he has infiltrated every aspect of human living, his influence is very real, but only because man allows it and buys into it. He does not introduce new desires into us, he merely encourages the ones we have. As an angel, God could easily have destroyed Satan immediately, but that would not resolve the ideology he has introduced. Rather, in order to kill off the idea and the philosophy, God has allowed it to show it's fruitage. Wars, Violence, Famine etc etc. By showing then what he hasn't had the opportunity to show, which is how his kingdom will operate. This way, he can win over the neutral and just maybe, some of those who may have previously been opposed.

Quote:

So what say you, is this a purely spectator sport?

No my friend, I agree with your sentiments that Satan likely influences the world in a similar way to how God influences his people, spiritual guidance is a good way of putting it.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

Quote:

God granted mankind free will and yet arbitrarily limits mankind's choices in regard to mankind's self-determination.

You still seem to suggest that free will is by definition unlimited.
We are right now governing ourselves. The results are clear, we have a politically incoherent world which has resulted in war after war after war. What is the doomsday clock looking like at the moment?
That is the basis on which we are not permitted to rule ourselves once the "example" has been laid down.
We will have free will, but we will not be able to choose to fly, live underwater or govern ourselves.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

To be fair, I quite enjoy Cicerones participation, amongst all of the debate mechanics, googlejockeys and agenda driven squabbles, it is nice to hear from those with an honest opinion and a sense of humour

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@Smileyrius,

Sounds like we are watching the same TV channel Smiley.

I do think there is a lot to be learned in contemplating why at the end of those years, many, who were believers all along, will side with Satan.

PS: CI is welcome in my book too. I do feel obligated to keep him honest occasionally though.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Just because God said those who do not believe in him shall go to hell is still self-determination.

Ding, ding, ding! CI gets it right!

Quote:

Many people live hell on earth; maybe most.

Actually, life on earth can be worse than hell at times. Hell is just an eternal dirt nap. It will probably be a relief for many. Life on earth is a meat grinder at times.

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@Leadfoot,

Quote:

I do think there is a lot to be learned in contemplating why at the end of those years, many, who were believers all along, will side with Satan.

I imagine it will be a giant head desk moment for us all Smile

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@cicerone imposter,

That's why people pine for heaven/paradise promised by these religions.

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@neologist,

All aspects of self-determination will be denied.

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@neologist,

According to your dogma, God has given man self-determination and will end it on Armageddon.

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@Smileyrius,

Smileyrius wrote:

You still seem to suggest that free will is by definition unlimited.

I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm saying that, according to your dogma, God gave man free will and yet demands that he act according to his strictures.

Smileyrius wrote:

We are right now governing ourselves. The results are clear, we have a politically incoherent world which has resulted in war after war after war.

That's the way of the world. Deal with it.

Smileyrius wrote:

What is the doomsday clock looking like at the moment?

That's a relic of twentieth century, Cold War paranoia.

Or are you talking about global warming?

If it's the former, it's time to move on. If it's the latter, pining for some supernatural solution at some future time won't solve the problem now.

Smileyrius wrote:

That is the basis on which we are not permitted to rule ourselves once the "example" has been laid down. We will have free will, but we will not be able to choose to fly, live underwater or govern ourselves.

Your analogies between flying and living underwater are inept because while man has never been able to fly or live underwater without contraptions, he does govern himself.

With that said, your dogma about man not being able to govern himself is exactly the point I'm arguing.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

Quote:

God has given man self-determination and will end it on Armageddon.

That's true if you don't accept that idea that those on the losing end of Armageddon chose their fate. They did get to choose sides.

But yes, after that, no more self determination for them. That is the prerogative you have when you are the God who created them and gave them life to begin with.

That does not seem unreasonable to me, especially when those losing self determination are determined to destroy the end goal that their creator wanted.

Where I depart from 'accepted dogma' is where religion feels that self determination is also given up by those who chose God's side.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
God has given man self-determination and will end it on Armageddon.
That's true if you don't accept that idea that those on the losing end of Armageddon chose their fate. They did get to choose sides.

The choices are arbitrarily limited.

LeadFoot wrote:

But yes, after that, no more self determination for them. That is the prerogative you have when you are the God who created them and gave them life to begin with.

That does not seem unreasonable to me, especially when those losing self determination are determined to destroy the end goal that their creator wanted.

Given that mankind has no say in the matter, that is unjust and unfair, to say the very least.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

Quote:

LeadFoot wrote:
But yes, after that, no more self determination for them. That is the prerogative you have when you are the God who created them and gave them life to begin with.

That does not seem unreasonable to me, especially when those losing self determination are determined to destroy the end goal that their creator wanted.

Given that mankind has no say in the matter, that is unjust and unfair, to say the very least.

To give your complaint legitimacy you have to have a foundation for your complaint. Satan provided a foundation for his complaint and was given a full hearing and trial (still under way). If you can provide a real framework for yours, I'm sure you will get a fair hearing too. But it has to be better that a cry of 'It's not fair'.

Currently, you have been given carte blanche of self determination in this existence. Then you are offered eternal existence in God's kingdom if you choose. What restrictions do you feel will be imposed on you there that you object to?

1 Reply

Was God creating Satan a good idea?

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