Christianity: Damaging to our civilisation?

We are? I am not facing any wrath or plagues-- certainly not those spoken of in Revelations.

some, like myself don't hold to the 'rapture' theory...

certainly, you can recognize the famine, war, disease, death, and misery the occurs every day around the world.....

the book of revelations is a very symbolic book....too many try and interpret it literally...

ever heard of 'amillenialism' as it relates to eschatology?

There is less disease today than ever. Worldwide people have a much higher life expectancy and infant and child mortality are at a historical low. I believe there is less famine today than ever (although I am not sure about this). Overall, there are less of each of these things than there was when Revelations was written.

Compare these conditions in the 21st century with the conditions of 500, 1000, 1500 year ago. You will see that there is nothing particularly bad about today. Most likely things are quite a bit better. This makes it hard to argue that an almost 2000 year old prophecy of misery is at al relevent.

I am not saying that a time of particularly bad "famine, war, disease, death and misery" won't come to fulfill this prophecy. But what we are experiencing now is more like the "wars and rumors of wars" that have always been present throughout the history of mankind.

sure, the life expectancy is higher than it used to be in modernized countries...

however, consider herpes (sores will appear on the mouths of people)...we don't have any idea where this virus came from...

consider the black plague....

consider AIDS...cancer....other STD's, etc....

you say things aren't particularly that bad today...you must not watch the news very often....

people starve to death every day....war, and famine are all around us...

it is my belief that a lot of what is spoken of in revelations began at the cross....including the 1000 year reign of Christ...1000 is symbolic for a 'complete' amount of time. according to the bible, the victory was won at the cross. although it may not seem like it, christ is reigning now.

in the same way the jews expected an earthly king for a messiah to bring peace and power, christians expect an earthly reign from christ.....they don't realize he is already reigning...


the bible is clear that christ will return....once more....not twice more...if we are to believe the rapture theorists, it would necessitate a second return of christ to 'save' those who survived the so-called wrath to come.
many people equate the rapture with "the day of the lord", however, after reading 2nd peter chapter 3 it is difficult to fit in a 'rapture'....as i said before, we must interpret vague scripture in light of clear scripture...



2nd peter chapter 3:

Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

if the 'rapture' happened...that would immediately begin a time-line that people could trace and predict when the 'real' end would come....if this is true, then the 'real' end i have quoted here, could hardly 'come like a thief'...

everyone believes the 'rapture' will come like a thief.....

i contend there will be no rapture......the 'real' end wil come like a thief...

Maybe the problem is that you watch too much TV.

Give me one century in history where there was less starvation, less war and less disease than today, and I will concede the argument.

The fact is that, historically speaking, things are not bad.

- People are less likely likely to die of famine than any other time in history.
- People are less likely to contract a disease than any time in history, and when they contract a disease they are less likely to die.
- More people are living longer than any time in history.
- The infant mortality worldwide is lower than any other time in history. Babies are much more likely to reach adulthood than any time in history.
- I believe a smaller percentage of people are fighting and dying in wars worldwide than any time in history. I am not completely sure about this one, but I think the numbers will bear me out in spite of the fact we are all fixated on Iraq, Afganistan and Chechnya right now.

But my point is this. It sounds like your doctrine requires you to believe that things today are worse than ever.

Television will certainly help you in this belief since the tendency is to show you the sensational things way out of proportion.

But if you think rationally, the facts simply don't back it up. There are always bad things going on in the world, but to fulfill the prophecy of calamity in Revelations (or any other prediction of doom) you need to show that things are worse than any time before.

If this were true, you would expect that more people would be dying of famine, disease and war-- and the consequently the life expectancy would be lower than ever. The opposite is true and historically speaking this is not a bad time to live.

There isn't much point in saying this now, but I might as well offer my support...



These things have been occuring every day since long before Revelations was written.

well....before i research the 'numbers'....let me say that my doctrine doesn't really have to mean that 'things have to be worse today, than any other time in history'

simply that, since the cross, many calamaties have been poured out against humanity....yes, in spite of christs reign....earthly health and power are of little concern....consider your sig...blessed are the meek....

i think many modernized countries are desensitized to violence, death, etc...

i'm not saying these calamaties are continually building and getting worse and worse....and of course, who knows what could happen in the next 100 years or even 1000 years....

heck, some kind of plague could potentially spring up any time...

i guees i want you to try to (all at once)emotionalize all the violence/famine/war/pestilence/etc. that has occured over the last 2000 years and tell me we're not facing trials and tribulations....sure the language in revelations is scary and dramatic, but so are the tribulations we face every day....

i realize these things also occured before the cross...but many are new to us....

aha!!! i knew you would say that!!! see previous post!!!

Seen previous post. What am I missing?

um.....the last line of my post where i said,

"i realize these things also occured before the cross...but many are new to us.... "

not the greatest answer, i know...

So you think that because bad things are now happening in different ways, the events foreseen in the book of Revelations are now taking place? Do you think this is the appocalypse?

no....i wouldn't put it like that at all....

i hold an amillenial view....

shall i go into detail?

Sure, might as well...

sorry...been busy today...

go to: google.com

type: amillenialism

press: 'enter'

proceed research

ok... i realize no ones going to do that....so...

The Bible predicts a continuous parallel growth of good and evil in the world between the first coming of Christ and the second coming of Christ. The kingdom of God is now present in the world through His Word, His Spirit, His Church. This position is also (and quite appropriately) know as "realized millenialism".

Arguments for this view:

1. The conditional nature of the Abrahamic covenant (as well as the other covenants) indicates that fulfillment of it, or the lack of it, is transferred to the church through Jesus Christ (Gen. 12:1-3; Rom. 10; Gal. 3:16).

2. The land promises of the Abrahamic covenant were expanded from Jews to all believers and from the land of Canaan to the new earth.

3. Prophecy demands a symbolic approach to interpreting the Bible. Therefore, prophetic passages can be understood in the overall framework of God's outworking of His covenant (e.g. Rev. 20).

4. The Old and New Testaments are bound together in unity under the covenant of grace. Israel and the church are not two distinct programs but one unified outworking of God's purposes and plans.

5. The kingdom of God is central in biblical history. It was central in the Old Testament, in Jesus' ministry, and in the church and will consumate with Christ's return. There is no need to call for a kingdom at a latter time, for the kingdom has always been.

6. History is moving toward the goal of the total redemption of the universe (Eph. 1:10; Col. 1:18).

7. Revelation 20:4-6 refers to the reign of Christ in heaven as He reigns by His Word and His Spirit.

8. The New Testament often equates Israel and the church as a unity (Acts 13:32-39; Gal. 6:15; 1 Pet. 2:9).

Some specific areas of interest:

1. Second Coming of Christ = Single event; no distinction between the Rapture and Second Coming; introduces eternal state.

2. Resurrection = General resurrection of believers and unbelievers at the Second Coming of Christ.

3. Judgments = General judgment of all people.

4. Tribulation = Tribulation is experienced in this present age.

5. Millenium = No literal millenium on earth after Second Coming. Kingdom present in church age.

6. Israel and the Church = Church is the new Israel. No distinction between Israel and the Church

Right, that flew right over my head, but I googled it and I have a vague idea of what you're talking about. So whatever it says in Revelations about the Jewish nation is in fact applicable to the church, which has appointed itself as the new Jewish nation? Or am I not even close?

well....which passage are you referring to??