0
   

Christianity: Damaging to our civilisation?

 
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Aug, 2004 02:33 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
I took agrote's post to mean the Iraqi soldiers who died defending the Saddam regime. Many Iraqi soldiers could have saved their lives by not fighting against the vastly superior American army. This is similar to the circumstances that christian martyrs were faced with.


I actually meant the American/English/European/etc. soldiers, who went to war under the pretence that Saddam was a threat to the Western world, when in fact he was a threat to Iraq only. But that's not important, the same applies to the Iraqi soldiers, I agree with yoru contention.

Abu, you clearly have faith. That's all. It cannot be proved that Jesus ressurected, that he was God, etc. But you have faith on those things. Your faith in God is no different to another man's faith in Allah.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Aug, 2004 02:59 pm
Abu Ishaq Al Juwayri wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
My contention stands. There is nothing unique about Christianity that makes it any more believable to an objective observer than any other faith. Like any other religion it is based on cultural beliefs.


christianity is unique for several important reasons..... unlike other religions, it is historic and evidential. jesus of nazareth is a historical figure..... he was, of course, born in bethlehem in judea during the reign of caesar augustus and was put to death by pontius pilate, a first century roman governor. ...more important, the testimony of his life, death, and resurrection comes to us by way of eyewitness accounts (1 john 1:1-4). therefore, christianity is a historic faith and its claims can be validated by examining the testimony of history. None of the other religions of the world can claim this kind of historical support.


Mohammed was a historical figure.

There are no eyewitness accounts except what comes from the Bible. As we have already established, these eyewitness accounts are basically heresay. We don't have any documents that they were recorded for 100 after the fact.

Quote:

another unique feature of christianity is that its founder claimed to be God (john 8:58). .....of the great religious leaders of the world (buddha, moses, zoroaster, lao tzu, mohammed), only jesus claimed to be god in human flesh (mark 14:62). ........yet far from being an empty claim, his historically verifiable resurrection from the dead vindicated his claim to deity (rom 1:4; 1 cor. 15:3-8). ....other religions, like buddhism and islam, claim miracles in support of their faith, but unlike christianity, these miracles lack historical verification.


This is correct. This is a unique feature of Christianity, although again there we have a problem knowing if Jesus really said this. There are equally ancient documents (including the Gnostic gospels) that refute this. But as far as the modern religion of Christianity, God becoming man is a unique feature.

Quote:

finally, an additional feature setting christianity apart from other religions is that it is a coherent belief system. some christian doctrines might transcend complete comprehension, but unlike the claims of many religions, they are not irrational or absurd......also, the christian faith is unique in that it can account for the vast array of phenomena that we encounter in everyday life: the laws of science, the universal laws of logic, ethical norms, love, the meaning in life, and the problem of evil and human suffering...... so to state it philosophically: the christian faith corresponds with the present state of affairs.


"Coherent belief system" is a very subjective term. Different people have different ideas about what is "coherent".

I left Christianity partially because of my problems reconciling the Old Testament God of vengence who ordered His people to commit genocide with Jesus' message of peace, forgiveness and loving ones neihbors. I know the apologetic doctrine that many Christians use to explain this (the new covenant and all that), but to me this doctrine lacks coherence.

The bible also does not account for the laws of science. The creation story is at odds with science. Not only that, raising from the dead, life after death, demon possession etc. would all strike some as "incoherent", especially in light of science.

All religions provide "coherent" (i.e. internally consistant) views on "ethical norms, love, the meaning in life, and the problem of evil and human suffering...... ". Christianity provides a view that is perfectly fine ... but it is by no means unique.
0 Replies
 
aquarius blue05
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Aug, 2004 03:09 pm
agrote wrote:
aquarius_blue05, I like your style. You're the sort of Christian I really can't argue with, a bit like my mum. Laughing


thanks man I just try really hard....
0 Replies
 
Abu Ishaq Al Juwayri
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Aug, 2004 03:56 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
I left Christianity partially because of my problems reconciling the Old Testament God of vengence


there is a very way to reconcile this....do you care to hear??
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Aug, 2004 05:36 pm
Sure. I am very familar with Christian doctrine and have heard most of the apologetic arugments, but I would love it if you could tell me something new, b
0 Replies
 
Abu Ishaq Al Juwayri
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Aug, 2004 06:43 pm
well....you've prob. heard it all before...i suspect you just don't want to believe....

what's that scripture?? something about, men choose not to embrace the light because their deeds are evil and they wish them to remain in the darkness....

something like that....
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 02:42 am
Abu Ishaq Al Juwayri wrote:
well....you've prob. heard it all before...i suspect you just don't want to believe....

what's that scripture?? something about, men choose not to embrace the light because their deeds are evil and they wish them to remain in the darkness....

something like that....


Interesting theory. Doesn't apply to me though, and I "choose not to embrace the light.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 01:27 pm
Abu Ishaq Al Juwayri wrote:
well....you've prob. heard it all before...i suspect you just don't want to believe....

what's that scripture?? something about, men choose not to embrace the light because their deeds are evil and they wish them to remain in the darkness....

something like that....


Except for the fact that my deeds aren't evil, I guess you are right...
0 Replies
 
Abu Ishaq Al Juwayri
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 06:16 pm
with which yardstick do you measure your deeds???

your own subjective ideals??

the ideals of society??

i can assure you sir, they are evil....just as mine are....the only difference is i seek to have them forgiven....

we have yet to define the term 'evil' of course....

but let me ask you.....when was the last time you lusted after another woman???

when was the last time you told a lie of any kind???

have you ever been selfish??
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 08:24 pm
The Bible is only one yardstick to measure deeds.

The Bible simply represents the ideals of a society.

Modern Christianity (at least the American kind) has a specific interpretation of the Bible that reflects the ideals of a different society. Modern Christian ideals are different than those of earlier christians in some striking ways.

One of the bad things about Christianity is the assumption that human beings are naturally evil. This doctrine causes some strange ways of thinkings for many Christians.

One thing I noticed from my religious days is that Christians hold to the belief that people who were not believers are not happy, and can not live good lives.

As someone who was a believer, and is now a non-believer, I have evidence against this. I am happy and I live a good life. I am in a faithful marriage I have relationships that are based on honesty and trust. There are people, especially my children, whose lives I am positively influncing.

Although, you may believe my afterlife is in doubt, I think God would agree that in this life I am on His side-- working to make my little part of the world a better place.

When I accepted the Christian doctrine of human wretchedness I didn't help me to live any better of a life than I am living now. This is one part of Christianity that I am happy to do without.

Sure there is the problem that all human beings have the urge to do thing that we all agree are wrong. The Christian dogma does provide a way to deal with this problem. But, if you don't accept the doctrine of the afterlife, there are other good ways to address this problem. Many people live fulfilled lives without accepting the Christian, or any religious, solution.
0 Replies
 
Abu Ishaq Al Juwayri
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2004 12:07 am
ebrown_p wrote:
One thing I noticed from my religious days is that Christians hold to the belief that people who were not believers are not happy, and can not live good lives.


perhaps it is that way in your neck of the woods....but that is not at all how i think or other christians i know...

even the bible says that unbelievers have already received their reward....implying that they have received the 'instant' reward/pleasure that sin offers versus the reward of the afterlife...

so of course you can live a good/happy life without god....however, this type of happiness pales in comparison to the joy that comes with salvation thru Jesus...
0 Replies
 
Magus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2004 01:40 am
My faith is in the TEACHINGS of Jesus.

My life experience has taught me to be wary of "Christians" and "Moslems" who have unshakeable, unswerving faith that THEIR way is the ONLY way, and that eliminating the heathens and infidels is an act of "Holiness".

Murder in the name of God/Allah/Faith is still Murder... perhaps the most vicious, twisted Murder of all.
i.e.- "Kill a Fag for Christ".... I've seen Fundies wear this on Tshirts, and there was NO tongue-in-cheek!
0 Replies
 
Abu Ishaq Al Juwayri
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2004 11:58 am
it is truly a tragedy to witness so many fail to understand what the bible tells us....

sir....anyone who wants to 'rid the infidels' or commit murder is not a christian even though they may call themselves such....is that so hard to recognize??

many people give christians a bad name because they claim they are one when they obviously are not. these people are very damaging to the faith.

but it is unwise to discredit christianity based on a few rotten apples...
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2004 01:22 pm
Quote:

....however, this type of happiness pales in comparison to the joy that comes with salvation thru Jesus...


In this life, I did not find this to be the case.

There are sincerely happy non-Christians (and there are sincerely happy Christians as well). Of course there are unhappy people of all flavors. But in my personal experience I found I was much happier when I started trusting my own heart-- even when it went against my religion.

As far as the next life, I still follow the words of Jesus.-- "Do not worry about tomorrow, for each day has enough troubles of its own."
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2004 01:24 pm
Abu Ishaq Al Juwayri wrote:
it is truly a tragedy to witness so many fail to understand what the bible tells us....

sir....anyone who wants to 'rid the infidels' or commit murder is not a christian even though they may call themselves such....is that so hard to recognize??

many people give christians a bad name because they claim they are one when they obviously are not. these people are very damaging to the faith.

but it is unwise to discredit christianity based on a few rotten apples...


I have found that there are key parts of the teachings of Jesus that the majority of people who call themselves Christians simply ignore or explain away. Nearly the entire Sermon on the Mount (Matt 5-7 and others) falls in this category.

Jesus said "Do not resist the evil man" and "Love your enemies"? How many people do you know who follow these teachings?
0 Replies
 
furiousflee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2004 01:41 pm
How can Christianity be a damage if practised correctly....
Love your enemies, as you love your self.....give and expect not anything in return....bless your enemies etc......people.....its a religious mindset that kills....Religion is human tune-ups to truth.....its impossible for true Christianity to damage society....because Christianity means literally to be of Christ.....to live like Christ....to DIE FOR OTHERS....self sacrifice for the greater good.....cmon people....
0 Replies
 
Magus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2004 01:53 pm
How does True Christianity dovetail with "pre-emptive" war... or war "justified" with lies about WMDs?
It seems to me that the self-styled "True Christians" are the War President's staunchest supporters...
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2004 02:28 pm
I am not sure if a person who sincerely followed the teachings of Christ would vote or not.

But if such a person would vote, I am sure she would never vote for Bush. Bush's policies are directly opposed to the gospels.
0 Replies
 
Abu Ishaq Al Juwayri
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2004 02:49 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
As far as the next life, I still follow the words of Jesus.-- "Do not worry about tomorrow, for each day has enough troubles of its own."


of course anyone can take parts of scripture out of context and use them in a way such as you have done here....mockingly....

you have to interpret vague scripture in light of clear scripture....this is the first rule of hermaneutics....
0 Replies
 
Abu Ishaq Al Juwayri
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2004 02:51 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
Jesus said "Do not resist the evil man" and "Love your enemies"? How many people do you know who follow these teachings?


not many, perhaps this is why even now we are facing the wrath/plagues spoken of in revelations....
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

How can we be sure? - Discussion by Raishu-tensho
Proof of nonexistence of free will - Discussion by litewave
Destroy My Belief System, Please! - Discussion by Thomas
Star Wars in Philosophy. - Discussion by Logicus
Existence of Everything. - Discussion by Logicus
Is it better to be feared or loved? - Discussion by Black King
Paradigm shifts - Question by Cyracuz
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.06 seconds on 12/22/2024 at 06:58:22