Is the mind the same as the brain, or do we have souls?

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Sounds reasonable. I guess most folks would say our minds represent some activity within our brains. But the concept of soul is independent of that connection despite having been a subject of much discussion throughout history. I would be surprised if any definition of soul has escaped mention on a2k.

Probably the most critical issue is the question of whether we have souls or simply are souls.

Also what complicates things is how these words are used. The three words are often used to refer to the same thing. Distinctions are made for religious, scientific, cultural, etc. purposes.

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In my opinion, the problem escalates, since if we do have something that one would define as a soul, I believe it is nothing like the "soul" that religion has promulgated. Meaning, it doesn't hang out in a Heaven.

I'd sooner believe we are one big organism, with our brains having some connection that is too arcane to understand. So, any "soul" we have might just be a shared "soul." So much for rugged individuality.

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@Foofie,

I've always believed in a human soul, but then I also believe in Angels.

And recall the words of the Quran, "Whitthersoever ye turn there is the Face of God"(Sura2/1009)

O you who seek God every day
Do you not know it, where God is?
He's present where I am,
Where'er I look, He's there.

(Sings Yunus Emre in Anatolia around 1300)

Abdul Latif in 18th century Sind knew that:

One castle, a hundred thousand doors,
Windows without number-
Wherever I look, there the Beloved confonts me.

(Source:"As Through a Veil, Mystical Poetry in Islam.
Annemarie Schimmel)

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For the Hebrew, the word nephesh, translated soul, simply means breather. Thus, animals are souls. People are souls. The soul we possess is our life.

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@neologist,

Does your car have a trunk or a boot. Or does yours have a radio?

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@neologist,

I have my own association of meaning for the word spirit that resembles to much the Italian "spirare", to breath out. I didn't chech the etmology of it but the resemblence resonates with me.

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

Does your car have a trunk or a boot. Or does yours have a radio?

:-)

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@Miller,

Miller wrote:

I've always believed in a human soul, but then I also believe in Angels.

Oy vey! Did you also look to see if that cup of wine got smaller at the Seder, left for Elijah?

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

I have my own association of meaning for the word spirit that resembles to much the Italian "spirare", to breath out. I didn't chech the etmology of it but the resemblence resonates with me.

That would be consistent with the story of God breathing spirit into man after he created them. Probably synonymous with 'soul'.

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Kabbalah And The Inner Spirit

According to Kabbalistic thought, the human soul consists of three parts: Nefesh, Ruach, and Neshama. The first component of the soul, nefesh, is present in every person from birth. The nefesh is the fount of the physical and psychological aspects of the human nature. The ruach and the neshama are not inborn and can only be attained through the intentions and actions of the individual. Kabbalistic thought holds that these two elements of the soul come into full flower only in people who have spiritual enlightenment. Here is an explanation of the three elements that comprise the human soul according to kabbalistic thought:

Three Elements

*Nefesh-This part of the soul is considered with the lowest level of the soul, and is something animal-like. The nefesh concerns itself with physical desire and instinct.

*Ruach-This is the middle level of the soul and translates as "spirit." The ruach is the part of the soul which can distinguish between good and evil.

*Neshama-This aspect of the soul is specific to man and elevates him above other forms of life. Through the neshama, we realize our intellect and attain the awareness of God. The neshama lives on after death.

Two More

The Zohar also expands on the fourth and fifth parts of the human soul in the section known as the Raava Maheimna. The first mention of these parts of the soul, the Chaya and the Yechida, is contained in the Midrash Rabbah. Modern kabbalist Gershom Scholem wrote that these aspects of the soul represented the highest level of intuitive understanding and that only a special few individuals might attain these elements for themselves. These two parts of the soul remain external to the body and therefore receive only rare mention in other sections of the Zohar. Here is an explanation of these two aspects of the human soul:

*Chaya-This is the aspect of the soul that gives one the consciousness of the divine life force.

*Yechida-This is the highest level the soul can reach. The soul achieves full union with God.

Three More

Other states of the soul are mentioned in both the rabbinic and the kabbalistic literature. These states are not considered to be permanent states but are developed according to need. These states of the soul play no part in the afterlife. Here is an explanation of these special circumstantial elements of the human soul.

*Ruach HaKodesh (spirit of holiness)-This state of the soul is connected to the ability to prophecy. According to Jewish tradition, upon the passing of the age of classical prophecy, no one outside of the land of Israel now has the ability to attain this level of the soul. The kabbalist Abraham Abulafia is the dissenting opinion on this viewpoint.

*Neshama Yeteira (extra soul)-Jews are said to attain a supplemental soul on the Jewish Sabbath. This soul helps enhance the spiritual enjoyment of the day. This aspect of the soul only visits those who observe the Sabbath to the strictest letter of the law.

*Neshama Kedosha-This soul is attained by Jews upon the age of maturity—13 years for boys, 12 years for girls—and is related to the observance and study of the Torah. One can gain or lose this aspect of the soul in relation to the level of observance and time spent in study

www.safed.com Kabbalah and the Inner Spirit

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@Foofie,

Do you remember the story about the "Angel of Death"? When a person is close to death, it's important to leave a window in the patient's room open, so
the Angel of Death can exit the room, presumbly carrying the soul of the desceased with him/her ( depending on whether the Angel is male or female).

It's a good idea to try and die at home, where most likely there are plenty of windows that can be easily opened. I can't help but wonder what the Angel of Death does in an American hospital, where all the windows are sealed shut. Does the Angel fly from room to room?

In Genesis, God blew life into a handful of soil to create mankind and at the end of a person's life, that life escapes from the human body to be captured by the hovering Angel of Death, who then lovingly carries that soul ( breath) back to God, it's Creator.

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@Miller,

Miller wrote:

Do you remember the story about the "Angel of Death"? When a person is close to death, it's important to leave a window in the patient's room open, so
the Angel of Death can exit the room, presumbly carrying the soul of the desceased with him/her ( depending on whether the Angel is male or female).

It's a good idea to try and die at home, where most likely there are plenty of windows that can be easily opened. I can't help but wonder what the Angel of Death does in an American hospital, where all the windows are sealed shut. Does the Angel fly from room to room?

In Genesis, God blew life into a handful of soil to create mankind and at the end of a person's life, that life escapes from the human body to be captured by the hovering Angel of Death, who then lovingly carries that soul ( breath) back to God, it's Creator.

I remember Woody Allen's Love and Death where the Grim Reaper is chasing him across a field. The music was from Prokofiev; very enjoyable in my opinion. I know nothing about Jewish mysticism. No interest in it. I consider Chassidic Judaism a rebellion against rabbinical Judaism. And, the Chassidic garb is just a knock-off, I was told, of wealthy Christians in those days. Too much mischegos.

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@Foofie,

Be sure to leave the window open a pinch...just in case. You never know!

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We have minds and they are our souls.

Can I prove this? Absolutely not.

When I escape this vale of tears I will discover if I was correct. What I will never discover is that I was incorrect.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

'I' woke up from a dream this morning in which I was being urged to move my car forward inside a bus to make room for other vehicles as it was raining outside. All in the dream appeared to be perfectly logical !

Given that such 'I's come and go throughout normal dreams, what chance is there of the survival of any consistent 'I'' (aka soul) experiencing 'escape from the vale of tears' and 'discovering' anything at all ?

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@fresco,

Dreams are not some meaningless delirium during which our self would be gone. I never heard of a dream in which the dreamer was absent. Our dreams tell something about us, they cast us in some sort of mind theatre that's about us, our hopes, our fears, etc. They are not a way outside of the self.

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@Olivier5,

Correct...but, they are evidence that a 'consistent self' is a myth. Gurdjieff extrapolates this to 'normal' consciousness which he likens to sleepwalking. According to him, we tend to spend our lives fulfilling promissary notes made by 'another' with the social label of 'our name'. (Gurdjieff's cosmology is admittedly weird, but his psychology is often spot on.)
'

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@fresco,

Who "I" am now is not present...identity on the contrary is made of tid bits of "another's" gone by tracked by memory. I am "yesterdays" made into a now I am not aware off.

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

. . . 'I' woke up from a dream this morning in which I was being urged to move my car forward inside a bus to make room for other vehicles as it was raining outside. All in the dream appeared to be perfectly logical . . .

You know well enough that to act on such 'logic' transcends naive realism and becomes the naive matrix. Very Happy

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@fresco,

Why would the self be more consistent than say, a tree, a river or a field? Everything changes all the time. And yet we can often recognized a river or a tree, or a person, in spite of much change in them. We can recognise that the kid we were at 5 was the same person than we are today, only with less experience. So I don't see much of a problem here.

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Is the mind the same as the brain, or do we have souls?

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