How to know the true God

@Leadfoot,

Since the 'you seeking guidance' is merely one form of egocentric construction it is unlikely to understand the nature of the psychological cookies which it finds 'good to believe'.

Quote:

If the mind frees itself from the illusion of its own self-protective demands and cravings, then there will be love, intelligence; then there will not be this division created by religions and beliefs; man will not be against man

J Krishnamurti

0 Replies

@Leadfoot,

Perhaps you're having trouble locating the answer to the question I asked concerning humans not knowing the mind of the god.

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts."
_________________________________

1 Reply

@Glennn,

Quote:

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about humans like Neologist presuming to know the mind of the god and what motivates it. What does the book or the god have to say about that?

Hmmm.. You started by saying that Neo could not know the mind of God.

I Asked whether there was some basis for an atheist saying a theist could not know the mind of God.

You countered by saying the book told you so.

I countered by citing the book advising to go directly to God for answers to all questions.

You now say that's not what we are talking about and say Neo (a theist I presume) who says certain things about the mind of God. You are very adept at leading Conversations in circles.

I must now ask you (again) whether it is reasonable that we should accept your assertion that Neo (who presumably does go to God for answers) does not know the mind of God or Neo's claim that he does.

Your assertion is at best a second hand account of what is in someone else's mind whereas Neo's claim is at least a firsthand account of his own knowledge.

I make no claim as to which of you is right, merely asking which is the more reasonable claim to accept. As to motivation, I will assume you both want the truth.

1 Reply

@Glennn,

Glennn wrote:

. . . humans like Neologist presuming to know the mind of the god and what motivates it. What does the book or the god have to say about that?

Quote:

For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater. 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. (Isaiah 55: 10,11)

That would include his instructions to Adam and Eve. Had they not sinned, they still be here. Nowhere does it say he has changed his mind.

Actually, you are the one presuming the thoughts and personality of God.

Glenn wrote:

The contradiction in your thinking becomes apparent when one considers that you don't see the god's decision to wipe out mankind in a fit of rage as an interference with free will choices.

You have inserted your own thinking here.
I can understand.
You think the Bible has no basis in truth - fertile ground for the growth of straw men.

1 Reply

@Glennn,

Knowing the mind of God about a certain thing is not equivalent to knowing all that is in the mind of God.

Just because I took Psychology 101 does not mean I know all that the Ph.D. Who taught the course knows. Neither Neo nor I have made such a claim about God.

0 Replies

@neologist,

Quote:

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please

This does not address the point concerning your belief that the god will not interfere with our free will choices. That's why I reminded you of the flood and the parting of the Red Sea, which were both an interference in the free will choices of humankind.

Quote:

Actually, you are the one presuming the thoughts and personality of God.

No. Don't you recall making up the story about the god having the ability to know what's going to happen, but not being obligated to do so in the interest of not interfering with our free will choices? I asked you to provide a reference for that supposition of yours, and you failed to do so?

Quote:

You have inserted your own thinking here.

Wrong again. I correctly pointed out your failure to view the god's decision to wipe out humans in a fit of rage as a blatant interference with the free will choices of those humans. So, my thinking is based on the contents of the book.

2 Replies

@fresco,

Quote:

Pragmaticists tend to argue that 'truth' equates to 'what it is good to believe'. Obviously value judgments of 'goodness' tend be transient and context specific. Theists attempt to negate this with their absolutist concept of 'eternal truth'...the very essence of their hypothetical 'deity'. They have the psychological desire for 'closure' against the void of their relative insignificance....'the safe haven of the womb'.....'the unconditionally loving protective parent'....etc. It all constitutes a self valedictory psychological security net...a hypothetical insurance policy demanding regular 'faith payments' but with debatable evidence of ever paying out !

Void? What void? I was not created with some emptiness that needed to be filled. Forgive me please if in waaaay past instances I may have made a statement like that, as it is a definite possibility. I was born with all the same basic abilities as everyone else. To love and be loved. To be taught new things. To process information and draw conclusions. To feel emotions while experiencing life, just to name a few.

What knowing God has done for me is to give me the opportunity to know some things I may not have ever known otherwise. Like love, peace, hope and joy. Just because we all start with the same abilities doesn't mean we all get the same opportunities presented to us through out our lives.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Quote:

I countered by citing the book advising to go directly to God for answers to all questions.

And did the god tell you that it chooses not to look ahead into the future even though it can, so as to not interfere with the free will choices of humans? And you share Neologist's idea about that, even despite the fact that the flood and the parting of the Red Sea are blatant examples of that idea being false?

Quote:

You are very adept at leading Conversations in circles.

No. I'm just asking questions concerning your beliefs.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Since truth is in the eye of the beholder, everybody has the options presented to them to believe or not to believe.
I see religion as an accident of birth. I chose not to believe.

And I respect that choice C.I. Smile

0 Replies

@Glennn,

Quote:

This does not address the point concerning your belief that the god will not interfere with our free will choices. That's why I reminded you of the flood and the parting of the Red Sea, which were both an interference in the free will choices of humankind.

Just a guess here, Not an expert on the area of 'dispensations' but it appears that there was a difference in the way God dealt with mankind BC and AD. There is a much more 'hands off' approach after he sent his son. His sending of the spirit after Christ left took the place of drastic strategic actions in the OT.

2 Replies

@Leadfoot,

I don't see the so-called 'sacrifice' any kind of true sacrifice. I'd sacrifice my life for a few days or weeks too if it made that much difference to the lives of mankind.

0 Replies

@Leadfoot,

Quote:

There is a much more 'hands off' approach after he sent his son.

And I will assume that you have something to support this idea of yours besides your guessing?

1 Reply

@Glennn,

Quote:

And did the god tell you that it chooses not to look ahead into the future even though it can, so as to not interfere with the free will choices of humans?

That was Neo's claim but I think I know what he means. Just because he could bend time and go into the future and see the results does not mean he would necessarily have to interfere with free will. But I do think he has a personal interest in this vast undertaking. I think he is enjoying watching it unfold in 'real time'.

When binge watching my favorite shows I'd never want to watch the final episode first.

1 Reply

@Glennn,

Quote:

Leadfoot Quote:
"There is a much more 'hands off' approach after he sent his son."

And I will assume that you have something to support this idea of yours besides your guessing?

Just going on the evidence in the book and life around me but it has a certain poetic logic to it as well. It also appears that the opposing side is similarly limited in how it can affect mankind. Both can only appeal to our free will AD.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Quote:

When binge watching my favorite shows I'd never want to watch the final episode first.

But we're not talking about the recipients of the writer's work. We're talking about the actual author.

There is so much conjecture going on here as a way to make the story stand up to scrutiny. Like I notice that you've not provide any reference to your claim that the god was more hands on before Jesus.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Quote:

Just going on the evidence in the book

That's what I was asking for. Please provide it.

0 Replies

@Glennn,

Quote:

But we're not talking about the recipients of the writer's work. We're talking about the author.

Not an accurate analogy. He made the characters for this play, but we actors can adlib lines all we want. What would be the point of free will if we were forced to follow some script?

As to 'hands on' before Jesus, you already cited plenty of examples. I don't recall any civilization destroying floods, cities destroyed by fire from heaven, etc after Jesus.

2 Replies

@Leadfoot,

Quote:

the idea that man could offend God is like saying an ant a thousand miles away could offend me when it does something wrong.

This is another example of inconsistent reasoning. The god was definitely offended by humans. That was the reason for the flood. So, your statement is patently false.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Some fires and flooding have done extensive damage with many lives lost. Many of those killed were children and infants.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Quote:

As to 'hands on' before Jesus, you already cited plenty of examples. I don't recall any civilization destroying floods, cities destroyed by fire from heaven, etc after Jesus.

You know I'm referring to the flood in Genesis. You also know that I've asked you to provide reference for your claim that the god was more hands on before Jesus. This goes to the point of the claim that the god would not interfere with the free will of humans. It obviously did when it did things like flood the Earth and part the Red Sea.

0 Replies

How to know the true God

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know