Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

You might be right. Mob stupidity never ceases to amaze me. (which makes me stupid along with them)
Since the State is dead perhaps mega corporation open Oligarchy n slavery come next along with a "Jina" version of the web...I just don't have a clue on what ppl will work in. Professional video games ?

Well then we're all part of that mob - prisoners of the same human nature. In some (rather narrow) respects human history is one of progress and advancement: in most others it is merely a repetition of the same old stories but on a perhaps large scale.

My impression is that human institutions of all kinds; religion, government, corporations, even academic institutions, quickly become corrupted and begin to decay once they overcome all their competitors. Without checks on their powers or active competition from others, human institutions usually fail as a result of their own internal contradictions ( some more quickly than others). It's the story of life.

Then fake news is here to stay. I had hopes on the web doing an "emergent" miracle...

The story of the Tower of Babel is not unique to the Abrahamic Bible. It was included in the Sumerian Gilgamesh about a thousand years earlier, and variants exist in other ancient texts.

Recorded human history is intelligible ( at least the historians say so) but the future remains unpredictable, except in very general and non specific terms. Moreover in contemplating the future, and various "what if's" in history, we are quickly confronted with the fact that history does not reveal its alternatives.

There may be analogies to this in science and mathematics. Highly complex (or nonlinear, as the mathematicians say) systems generally defy detailed projections for their future states. The weather is an example and hurricanes are a result. Interestingly in such systems, some repetitive (but also hard to predict) patterns can be observed in the highly complex outcomes.

We can argue about these patterns and make forecasts of the outcome, but we can't be certain. That's the hell of it.

The same goes with Brexit.

That is a very vague sentence. The challenge at hand is to exit the Brits without too much damage to the rest of us. So far so good. The 27 are holding a united negotiation front, which is precisely what they should do. The British government is slowly taking the measure of the task ahead. Let's where all that leads.

A democratic union is precisely one which any member can decide to leave at any point, so it's good practice I guess... We're not rebuilding the Delian League here. Britain has a democratic right to leave and in an oderly manner, if possible.

What you might wish to consider, George, is wheher your own narrative of history isn't colored by a need to see the USA as the new leader of the free world, and THEREFORE a parallel need to portray Europe as OF COURSE declining in its capacity to even lead itself.

Under present circumstances, I wonder who between the US or Europe is declining the fastest...

Remember what made us strong. Remember what allowed Europe to conquer the whole world. It's called science. It's what gave us the guns and the ships to do so. Science means respect for smart people doing long arduous observation, analysis and reporting on FACTS. Not ignorance of facts or ideological fabrication of alternative facts. Not bombastic lies expressed with less than 128 characters either.

If anyone is in decline, it's he who lacks the courage to truly take the measure of reality and act on this basis. I am thinking climate change here, for instance. Europe has the courage to face global warming and act on it, the US doesn't.

By definition a "free world" doesn't need or have a leader, except when it is seriously threatened by an external force, That was indeed the case after WWII, as most of Europe was awash in the devastation and destruction of two major Wars and the proximate threat of an expansionist Soviet Empire, then in the process of swallowing up most of Eastern Europe and threatening the former European Empires. The role of leadership fell by default to the United States, which had been historically reluctant to get deeply involved. We did our bit to help restore European economies and lead in the defense to a then threatening Soviet Empire. All that ended in 1990, and, within a decade, the U.S. began reducing it's former role in leading international affairs - a process that continues.

I am a patriot of my country, as I assume you are of yours and/or the EU. Beyond that I don't have any need for domination or leadership of others, and I believe that view is widely shared here. Oddly you, hear, appear to exhibit some of the jingoism of which you accuse others.

Europe never conquered the "whole world" as you claimed, and didn't hold on to what it did seize for very long. It's sole leadership in science vanished a long time ago,

I agree that science often leads to better solutions, but it is done by humans and sometimes involves folly. The EU' s "courage to face global warming" hasn't so far accomplished much with respect to that phenomenon, and the methods so far used don't yet provide a real solution. The wind turbines and photovoltaic solar cells so far used won't yield much more at tolerable economic cost. The United States has reduced its GHG emissions ~5% in the last decade, mostly through profitable additional use of domestic natural gas. A real solution will require new technologies, say solar powered production of free hydrogen, or more acceptable applications of nuclear power. That said, you are free to march on courageously as you say ( and continue taking credit for the French commitment to nuclear power).

I don't think that Brexit is a triumph for the EU, anymore than is the current situation with the flood of hard-to-assimilate immigrants from the South. Indeed I believe these are indicators of internal political contradictions which persist in other areas of the Union. These are typical of the challenges most modern political systems face, but they are indeed real. That was the meaning of my statement of what lies ahead for the EU

The US also helped to restore the politics and economy of Japan. Quite a feat when we consider how Japan's economy has grown.

Who is "we"? I don't think the British have a superiority complex, anymore than some other EU countries believe that their culture is "most" sophisiticated, or has a grander history.

But, as a United States citizen, I do believe that in the 20th century, the Anglo Saxons did show a degree of backbone against the Germans twice. And, all kidding aside, didn't anyone think that going around the end of the Maginot line was doable? Also, not killing off their royalty does show a degree of civilized behavior that was not exhibited by those that felt the guillotine was virtuous behavior, or some such thing?

But, you can be assured that your own motherland is not appreciated by those that appreciate humility. Perhaps, the beach scene in A Man and A Woman does get many to believe that that is what makes life worth living? On that note - Inky, dinky, parle vouz.

The LEAVE campaign was not spearheaded by May's Tories. The UKIP, whose ideology is "national conservatism" is all those things you accused Britain of being. It was the driving force behind independence, and it aligns politically with Trump, Le Pen and Orban. If it were in power, I expect it would behave like Trump and Orban. The tabloids Fil talked about are ukip tabloids.

But May's ruling Tories don't align with Trump and Le Pen. The Tory ideology is "classical liberalism" like Fillon's. People with that ideology tend to pursue trade deals with pretty much everyone.

...at least that's how I understand the situation.

A report about Gibraltar, giving a more local view of the situation:
Saturday tapas and Sunday roast: Gibraltar's 'true Europeans'

We're discussing Brexit here, not what May's pro-trade inclinations might be.

The tabloids that supported the Leave campaign are mainstream, and read far beyond UKIP'S electorate. The Sun, the Daily Mail, the Daily Telegraph and Daily Express have all been arguing for Britain to leave the EU for many years. These are the dominant UK newspapers, the ones selling the most. Ergo a commanding section of the UK media voted to leave. The problem runs deeper than just one freak vote.

The fundamental issue is Britain's relation to the continent, in its own view of herself. Britain tends to see herself (in the worldviews that people peddle and teach to their kids) as more worthy than the continent. Your own denial of UKIP'S influence is typical: these sordid extreme right parties are for the French, the Dutch and their ilk, right?

Well, think again. UK voters have followed the sirens of populism and biggotry and voted for an extreme-right proposal, an extreme and radical proposal: Brexit. UKIP doesn't get to name the prime minister just now but they could well win another election down the road and get to control Downing Street... I don't see why not. You guys aren't inherently superior to anybody else.

In fact at the moment you're poised to become even more biggoted than you normally are. The sabber ratling about Gibraltar is just the beginning... As the negotiations unfold, we're in for an endless slew of jingoisms and parochialisms from the British media and politicians.

When you consider about what the debates regarding Brexit are in the UK during the last couple - the colour of British passports and talk about war with Spain - and what the government does (re the Saudi dictators, the Turkish autocrats, the Israeli hardliners; and minimising support for the disabled, schools, housing etc), you only can wonder, if this really is "taking back control of the country" what the small majority of voters wanted.

To be fair, May laughed at the talks about war on Spain... But the very fact that one lord thought it could be useful to threatened war on Spain shows that nerves are raw and temper in short supply on the other side of the channel.

I don't see how the Gibraltar clause in the EU document could be rationally objected to. Just because the UK didn't think too much about Gibraltar (or anything else really) when voting "Leave" doesn't mean the issue disappeared.

We should gear ourselves to more and more shrill talks during the next two years. It's gona be painful. I look forward to the post-brexit phase.

Europe did conquer nearly the whole world, to the exception of Japan, Thailand, Ethiopia and Afghanistan.


That was not the point. My point was that science was what made the "west" so powerful, historically. Therefore the anti-science outlook of Trump and co. can only weaken the US.


Nevertheless, it takes some courage to face the truth and to try and act upon it. More courage than it takes to ignore or debase the truth and avoid one's responsibilities... The US' constant attacks on the "messengers" of climate change (the scientists) are an act of cowardice.

That is simply not true. I travel the world over for a living, and France is well regarded wherever you go. Your little, inward-looking social circles do not represent the world, Foof.

You have to revise your history..

Who has introduced us to better furnitures than a board to sit on? France
Who has introduced us to better cooking? France
Which is the postal language? French
The list is long and I would say France is well regarded.

At least "by and large"... Of course we have our share of assholes.

Over and beyond past contributions, many people outside the US and UK do appreciate that France is not systematically aligned to the US and UK. We get a lot of good rap just for being different from the US, and not shy of speaking our mind. My compatriots are also often seen as more approachable, friendlier, less distant than Americans, especially in the Third World.

I honestly hope Le Pen is declining in the pools.
As I said earlier France now has a chance to shine n rise up to its humanistic tradition and Ideology. Let's hope you and the Germans can keep it together.
The Italian banks give me an endless headache...