Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

@Kolyo,

"Your", meant the majority of your collective, not you. Obviously, I never implied any hive idea about it either. Again you jump to conclusions about my thought process because it is inconvenient to you. I have lived in London for a couple of years around 2001 and loved the experience. I visited your museums, (spent 3 days at the natural museum) I appreciate your literature, your science centers like Cambridge or Oxford, your expertise, your BBC documentaries, the list goes on...I won't lie I didn't bond well with your working class, it was surprisingly ignorant of basic knowledge and all the tabloid pop thing didn't connect with me. But that was a small detail in a sea of interests that your culture had to offer. My problem with Britain goes with your persistence in the Imperial modus operandi, mentality, you still attached to and that led to the bloody suicide in the referendum seriously harming the EU.

Actions have consequences no matter how sad and disappointing the divorce may be.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

. My problem with Britain goes with your persistence in the Imperial modus operandi, mentality, you still attached to and that led to the bloody suicide in the referendum seriously harming the EU..

My problem with them is their spelling.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Well, I won't defend the Brits to you anymore. Objectively speaking, you probably know them better than I do anyway, since you've spent more time there than I have.

I wasn't able to bond with the working class there either. I think a big moment came for the working class everywhere when they gave up on international socialism. There is a need to blame someone else for the fact that others have it better than oneself. If it's no longer socially acceptable to blame the upper classes, people look for a scapegoat, and xenophobia is born.

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

Were the French chasing you ?

No, but they really weren't pleased.

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Another battlefield (perhaps even literally) will be or already is the British Overseas Territory Gibraltar:
EU will not go soft on Gibraltar issue in Brexit talks, diplomats say

Quote:

The EU will not back down in its support for Spain’s demands when it comes to the Rock of Gibraltar in Brexit negotiations, senior European diplomats have said. The European council, whose members comprise the EU member states, shocked Downing Street by saying the British overseas territory could be included in a trade deal between London and Brussels only with Spain’s agreement.

Early on Sunday, a former Conservative leader waded into the row by claiming that Theresa May would be prepared to go to war to protect the territory as Margaret Thatcher once did for the Falklands. In comments that were immediately criticised by Labour and the Lib Dems as inflammatory, Michael Howard said there was “no question” of Britain weakening its stance with regards to the sovereignty of one of its overseas territories.

The 14 overseas territories do not form part of the United Kingdom and, with the exception of Gibraltar, are not part of the European Union.

Gibraltar isn't the only "country" which has a special relation to the EU - wikipedia has a llist here.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Erdogan is in no way - with or without our help - accepting modern Eurooean values. He is already spying on the Turks living here in EU to find out if they are for him or not. When you call friends in Turkey you have to be very careful
what you say - telphones are hacked.
For the Turks living here already in EU I think it would not be easy for them to have Erdogan within our borders.

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@Kolyo,

Quote:

Britain is more likely to take your side in that kind of situation if you are its main trading partner, than it would be if you let them become dependent on Donald Trump for trade.

If the UK wanted to stick to European values and solidarity, it would not be leaving the EU... The Leave campaign was xenophobic, hateful, and lied again and again. And it won.

I actually think it's for the best. The UK never was in the EU to make it a success. It just wanted to slow it down.

But you guys belong to the likes of Trump and Erdogan now. Just follow May's foreign visits and you will understand who Britain is courting now. It ain't us.

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@georgeob1,

The Super Etendards have been retired now, replaced by the Rafale M (which is also able to take off and land on US carriers). I'm no military expert but compatibility amongst NATO members' weapon systems seems logical to me.

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@cicerone imposter,

In my opinion Europe had enough dictators last century and EU should avoyd getting one within its border.
European Union is a union for European coutries and Turkey is not a european country.
There are still several european coutnries outside of EU. Don´t they have more right to get into EU than Turkey?

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@saab,

Rather than let Turkey get radicalized and retreat to their Arab cocoon if I was among the EU leaders I would openly propose to Turkey the entry in exange for the dictactor to step down, Turkey having free elections and adopt a code of conduct in accordance to EU standards. At least the Turks would know they are welcome. This position would contrast with Trump stupid approach and set EU on their tracks as a tolerant culture. Turkey is a necessary bridge to stabelize the middle east.

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@Walter Hinteler,

So the Ex-Tory chief likened Gibraltar to Falklands, Spain wants to back independent Scotland's membership of EU, Boris Johnson says the status of 'the Rock' will not change, Spain says it is surprised by the UK response on Gibraltar, and this morning, Fabian Picardo, the British territory's Chief Minister said, Gibraltar will not tolerate being a bargaining chip and will not be the victim of Brexit negotiations. He called on EU leaders to remove references to the territory from draft Brexit guidelines, and said Spain is bullying Gibraltar and the EU is allowing it to act in this way.

Speaking in Luxembourg at a meeting of EU foreign ministers today, Johnson's Dutch counterpart, Bert Koender, said that the issues surrounding the sovereignty of Gibraltar shows just "how difficult the divorce" between the UK and the EU has become. He asked parties to avoid inflaming the situation, urging the countries involved to "be cool and carry on, and not use too harsh language".

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@Fil Albuquerque,

That approach could have worked a decade ago, and in fact it was tried and to a certain degree it did provide an incentive for Turkey to reform. But that game is over now. Turkey does not want Europe and neither does Europe want Turkey anymore.

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@Olivier5,

I agree is much more challenging now. Still that would be in my opinion the best approach. Again at least the Turks would not feel ostracized. We have to end this nonsense and step away from US position as much as possible.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

I agree is much more challenging now. Still that would be in my opinion the best approach. Again at least the Turks would not feel ostracized.

If anything, the EU needs to get rid of some of its current free-wheelers, not enlist new ones.

The thing that voluntarist Eurobuilders tend to forgot is that the EEC-then-EU was built on the ashes of WW2, by nations who came to terms with the dangers of what you call "tribalism" (ie nationalism). They looked back and saw the massive horror their dreams of national glory had produced, they swallowed their national pride and re-evaluated their own history in that new light of the Holocaust, all the destruction, all the hatred. They soon realized that even the way they had been studying and teaching history in schools (their historiography) was geared to foster a strong sense of nationalism amongst their children, and that a cultural evolution was necessary. To a degree at least, and of course it's truer of the nominal "loosers" Germany and Italy than it is of the UK or even France, but still, there is at the core of the modern European project a desire to go beyond petty nationalism, and play nice with neighbours for a change.

Did the Eastern European nations hastingly enlisted in the EU ranks know that? No they didn't, as the case of ultra-nationalist Hungary demonstrates.

Do the Turks know that they need to come to some terms with their own history and historiography, before they can enter the EU? No they don't. Try and discuss the Armenian genocide with ANY Turk, and you will quickly understand that there is plenty undigested tribalism in their collective mind.

In the end, the determinent factor in Brexit was a revival of the pre-WW2 mentality in some parts of the English (mainly) electorate. It was a tribal vote, fueled by deep rooted contempt for "the continent" and a sense of national grandeur. That's why the Leave vote was mainly an English vote, not a Scottish one.

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@Olivier5,

Regarding your last paragraph of the above post ...

Don’t underestimate how much Britons care about blue passports

Quote:

Like many British traditions that people passionately yearn for, you might be surprised to learn that blue passports weren’t actually part of our national life for all that long. The crown has been issuing travel documents since at least the 1400s, sometimes in French, sometimes in Latin, sometimes having to be personally signed by the monarch, but nearly always they were issued as a single sheet of paper. The blue booklet passport was not introduced until 1920, and it was only issued for 68 years. We’ve had the burgundy version for 29 years – about a third of the time the UK has been issuing passports in book form. Around 24 million people in the UK under the age of 29 have never held a blue British passport.

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@Olivier5,

I think most of the Former Soviet satellite states that joined the EU shared the war weariness and sense of the horrible losses incurred in 20th century Europe as did the Original western EU members. I suspect the main difference is that the Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, etc. had already seen their own nationalism (and freedoms) suppressed for over a generation by another, somewhat different, pan nationalist movement with universal aspirations - the Soviet Empire. It would not be surprising to find them with lingering suspicions of such internationalist movements. I agree the Hungarians are an exception to most rules.

I believe the Turks are somewhat unfairly penalized by Europeans and others for the Armenian genocide. It was truly an awful thing, but it was dwarfed by the many genocides by European powers in Europe, Africa and Asia during the 19th and 20th centuries. These European Powers had been dismembering the Ottoman Empire for more than a century when WWI began, The Turks had taken in most of the survivors of the Russian genocide of Circassians 50 years earlier as the persecution of Armenians began in 1915. Concurrently with the massacre & exile of Armenians the British and French were invading Turkey from the West and the Russians from the east. The Turks were likely feeling a little Xenophobic.

The world is still working out the awful consequences of WWI , the destruction of the Ottoman Empire and the Betrayal of nascent Arab nationalism at the hands of Britain and France and Russia.

I appreciate contemporary European rejection of (their) tribalism. However it often appears that they got this religion a little late and too much to boot. Now (in keeping with their traditions, they want to impose it on everyone else.

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Nationalism will be dead at worst in a couple of centuries. I am looking forward not back. EU can even go down for now if fearmongering wins the day but it will bounce back eventually. My point is I rather not waste a century in the process. Turkey and other problematic countries will be dragged by their feet to Globalization and modern world. Starting early would be good for EU.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Perhaps you should look back at human history more than you do. The world has seen a plethora of universal states that turned out to be not very universal or long standing at all.

I see several serious challenges ahead for the EU and very few triumphs.

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@georgeob1,

Fair n true. But now we don't have a choice. The world will need a global policy or will rotten till it accepts the fact.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

That sounds to me a bit like Aesop's story about the mice belling the cat.

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Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

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