32
   

Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

 
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2016 12:18 pm
@Tes yeux noirs,
Actually, it may well not be. There are some clowns here who show up and start voting down posts indiscriminately--one of my posts in a humor thread was voted down just a little while ago.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2016 12:19 pm
On the other hand:
- the EU parliament agreed to provide aid for those suffering extreme poverty in the EU. The EU offered up to £22 million to help subsidise Britain’s food banks, but the money was blocked by the UK government. Source

- the British government has also not applied for EU funding to help the many thousands in Britain who have lost their homes and businesses because of wide-spread flooding following record-levels of rain fall. (EU member states are entitled to apply for money from the EU Solidarity Fund when a natural disaster causes substantial damage, calculated as a percentage of Gross National Income. In the UK’s case, this would be a natural disaster causing damage in excess of 3 billion euros. An application to the emergency fund must be made within 12 weeks of the commencement of the disaster.)
According to accountants, KPMG, the cost of the UK floods had topped £5 billion, which is roughly €6.8 billion, so Britain was entitled to apply for the EU emergency help.
In the summer of 2007 the then Labour government applied for support and immediately received £134 million to help deal with the flood crisis that year which also caused billions of pounds of damage - the then Conservative opposition welcomed the Labour government’s decision to appeal for European funds, but said they should have applied earlier. (Source)
0 Replies
 
Tes yeux noirs
 
  2  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2016 12:31 pm
@Setanta,
It happens to me. I wish I could find out who was doing this stupid thing, so I could vote them right into the ground!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2016 01:11 pm
It's not just the voting down - the arguments for or against a Brexit are sometimes annoying as well.

A recent example seems to be below the belt, namely that Obama nurtured an "ancestral dislike of the British empire" because he was "part-Kenyan".

But since the leader of the Front National, Marie Le Pen, will come to Britain to make the case for Brexit, 'better' might come.
Tes yeux noirs
 
  2  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2016 03:44 pm
The title of this thread is (deliberately?) misleading. it ought to be "Why do some Brits want out of the EU?". Despite how spittle-flecked Brexiters would have it, not everyone in the UK wants to leave the EU.

The Financial Times latest poll results (17 April): STAY 44% LEAVE 42%

Lash
 
  0  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2016 05:25 pm
@Tes yeux noirs,
The thread question reflects my interest in why "any" Brits want out of the EU. I'd read a couple of articles about Brexit, which discussed expected negative repercussions of Britain leaving the EU, but holes were left in why Brits were motivated to leave.

I was glad to have access to people living this out in Europe. Quite a luxury.

Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 04:56 am
@Lash,
Quote:
Both sides in the European referendum debate stand accused of making “misleading and inaccurate” claims about the pro and cons of Britain’s membership in an attempt to sway votes in their favour.

A group of academics and an independent organisation that ‘fact checks’ assertions made by politicians found that both ‘remain’ and ‘leave’ campaigners were guilty of passing off questionable claims as truth.

And they warned that the public were being ill-served by the standard of the debate as a result of being “bombarded” by conflicting claims that at best were “unsupported by evidence and at worse simply untrue”.

EU referendum: The verdict on both sides of the campaign – you can’t believe either of them
0 Replies
 
Lordyaswas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 07:30 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I was waiting to se when someone would bring Le Pen/possible racism/possible fascism to the table.

Well done, Walt. The suggestion has now been planted.

And "spittle flecked" is another.

Any other negative connotations that can be attached, anyone?


Personally, and I'll state it again as I did in my early post, I want Britain to fully govern itself once more, through our fully democratically elected representatives in our British Parliament.

It would be interesting to hear some American views on this subject of democracy. All very well for Obama to follow his TTIP agenda and pressure us into staying, but I have a question for any American who may read this:

What would it take for you to allow people outside your elected government to strike down your laws and impose their own?


Lordyaswas
 
  0  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 07:35 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Lordyaswas wrote:
For instance, you very helpfully provided a chart and graph re. Payments, now please can you also provide a chart and graph to tell me the last audit date when Brussells had its books checked and "signed off", ie shown to balance.
I don't know if there's a chart and/or graph of the audits, but that's done by the European Court of Auditors every year. (That's all regulated in the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, but the UK had an opt-out here.)


Nicely dodged.

I'm sure with your internet skills you could find the info to confirm that their books have been given the all clear, no?

I put it to you that auditors have not signed off their yearly audits for at least a decade, probably much longer.

Prove me wrong, please.


In the meantime, here's some interesting reading.....


Snippet:
"The audit, published this morning, found that £109 billion out of a total of £117 billion spent by the EU in 2013 was "affected by material error”.
It means that the Brussels accounts have not been given the all clear for 19 years running."


Link with full article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/11209248/EU-auditors-refuse-to-sign-off-more-than-100billion-of-its-own-spending.html
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 08:36 am
@Lordyaswas,
Well, our Federal Court of Auditors is not very different as are the states' and municipal audit courts/offices.

That seems to be totally different to the situation in the UK. (Though media reports seem to show similarities.)
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 09:28 am
@Walter Hinteler,
It really seems that this is done differently in the UK than in e.g. Germany and the EU.

Quote:
The European Commission managed its 2014 EU budget funds according to the rules, so Parliament should grant it a 'discharge' (i.e. approval), for that year, the Budgetary Control Committee said on Thursday. Parliament’s own management of EU funds in 2014 was also approved, in a separate vote.
[...]
MEPs are concerned that lever of error for spending, under the shared management of the Commission and Member states, amounts to 4,6% which is well above the 2% threshold beneath which the European Court of Auditors could classify payments as error-free. They note that the Commission, which is legally responsible for expenditure overall, should monitor closely the implementation in the member states which in fact manage locally 80% of all EU funding.
[...]
The Commission should be fully responsible for recovery of the unduly paid funds into the EU budget, but to do so it should establish uniform principles of member state reporting, says the approved resolution.
[...]
The Budgetary Control Committee’s recommendations will be put to a vote, by Parliament as a whole, on 28 April in Brussels. Parliament will take its final decision on the postponed discharges in October.



To answer your previous quest, lord: the European Court of Auditors (ECA), signed off on the 2014 accounts as reliable - something it's done for every set of figures since 2007. But it did find that payments made were materially affected by error. See report @ >fullfact.org<
0 Replies
 
Tes yeux noirs
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 10:13 am
@Lordyaswas,
I thought "commissar" was pretty negative.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 11:26 am
@Tes yeux noirs,
Tes yeux noirs wrote:
I thought "commissar" was pretty negative.
The lowest echelon for service entry to the police in our state is "Kommissar" (equivalent 'inspector') Wink [commissar (etymology): German Kommissar (“commissioner”), from Latin commissarius]
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 02:08 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
A very good and amusing opinion: Never mind the EU arguments, just look who’s talking

Quote:
[...]
In the competition for “which side in the referendum can get the most impressive celebrities to back them” Obama is pretty much the trump card. Meanwhile those in the Brexit camp have Marie Le Pen speaking out on their behalf, perhaps unaware that most British people have quite a strong objection to racists. Oh and they don’t much like the French either.
[...]
So this is the key issue of principle as I see it. If I voted leave, I’d be agreeing with Nigel Farage, George Galloway, Michael Gove, Bernie Ecclestone and Joan Collins. That clinches it, doesn’t it? And isn’t there an unassailable moral and economic argument that we must always do the opposite of whatever Iain Duncan Smith wants us to do. I may not know what that is exactly; I may have failed to weigh up all the contrasting claims, but that’s only because the overwhelming sensation I experience is “Oh not bloody Farage AGAIN!”
[...]
Only George Osborne has truly tied his political fate to a victory for the remain side, and this leads to an uncomfortable sensation when those of us on the left find ourselves agreeing with him. “Well said, George, good point!” we exclaim at the TV, and then we feel disgusted with ourselves, running upstairs to the shower, plunging all our clothes into a boil wash. The discomfort is much the same when great pillars of capitalism such as the Bank of England or the International Monetary Fund come down firmly on our side. “See, that’s the IMF talking,” we say. “They’ve always been on the side of the ordinary British worker.”

It confuses the picture still further to see that half of the Conservative big beasts are playing to two different sets of voters – the great British public on one hand and the swivel-eyed little Englanders who make up most of their party membership on the other. So when Theresa May goes on TV to defend the EU, she uses the slot to say how membership makes it harder to curb immigration.
[...]
Is it wrong to make decisions on the basis of personalities? I don’t think so. Democratic politics has always been about trust and delegation. We vote for politicians hoping they know more about what needs to be done than we do, assessing their values, their priorities and indeed their likability.

So in a mind-boggling referendum debate, it’s understandable that we should do the same. In fact, I think we should stop feeling guilty about this approach and just embrace it. The ballot paper should just feature two photos: one of Obama, the other of Galloway, perhaps dressed in his pussycat leotard from Celebrity Big Brother.
0 Replies
 
Tes yeux noirs
 
  3  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 02:20 pm
Quote:
So this is the key issue of principle as I see it. If I voted leave, I’d be agreeing with Nigel Farage, George Galloway, Michael Gove, Bernie Ecclestone and Joan Collins. That clinches it, doesn’t it? And isn’t there an unassailable moral and economic argument that we must always do the opposite of whatever Iain Duncan Smith wants us to do. I may not know what that is exactly; I may have failed to weigh up all the contrasting claims, but that’s only because the overwhelming sensation I experience is “Oh not bloody Farage AGAIN!”

This is brilliant, and pretty well sums up the attitude of a lot of people I have talked to recently.
0 Replies
 
Tes yeux noirs
 
  3  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 02:52 pm
This is funny
Quote:
Poor Barack Obama, he must be devastated. To be criticised by Nigel Farage like that, I just hope the US president’s global popularity can survive. And then for Boris Johnson to point out that the president was “part-Kenyan”, well he must have felt so humiliated. For so long the US president had kept the fact that he was black a secret, and then Johnson let the cat out of the bag.
0 Replies
 
Tes yeux noirs
 
  3  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 02:54 pm
There's even an epithet to go alongside "spittle-flecked":

Quote:
swivel-eyed little Englanders
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 03:55 pm
@Lordyaswas,
I was very surprised Obama'd stick his nose in that stew. AS IF we'd welcome meddling from outside in our policy.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2016 11:09 am
@Lordyaswas,
Lordyaswas wrote:
Who is talking about the human rights?
Some in the UK (most of the Brexit supporters, but others as well), wants to leave the European Convention on Human Rights (and thus the Council of Europe, on organisation that is NOT the EU!).

The Guardian had published a 'pleasant' sketch about that, see >here<
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2016 12:19 pm
@Lordyaswas,
Earlier Lordyaswas wrote that it is not a simple Left v Right matter.

That's too true [in my opinion, it's simplified: Britain versus continental Europe].

From the Independent's Sketch: Frank Field rides in to the Referendum Horse Circus
Quote:
“40 per cent of Labour voters are recorded as ones who wish to leave. That’s a basis on which we can build,” Mr Field said. “The Remain campaign is the government’s campaign and that’s another reason Labour voters will come out and give them a friendly punch on the nose.”

No doubt they will, but if they succeed, they’ll get Boris Johnson for their troubles, or worse, and for four more years. That’s a long time to be on the wrong horse.
 

Related Topics

THE BRITISH THREAD II - Discussion by jespah
FOLLOWING THE EUROPEAN UNION - Discussion by Mapleleaf
The United Kingdom's bye bye to Europe - Discussion by Walter Hinteler
Amanda Knox - Discussion by ossobuco
Sinti and Roma: History repeating - Discussion by Walter Hinteler
[B]THE RED ROSE COUNTY[/B] - Discussion by Mathos
Leaving today for Europe - Discussion by cicerone imposter
So you think you know Europe? - Discussion by nimh
 
Copyright © 2019 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 10/17/2019 at 06:34:55