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Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 13 May, 2016 11:06 am
@saab,
Well, you are certainly correct about the date when the EU started.
But I'd thought, everyone here was calling the EEC EU as well ...
My bad.

Two years after a leave vote it's LEAVE. It really doesn't matter what you have heard, I suppose.
Ten years are more or less is the time, soe think the consultations about new treaties will last.

Well, the UK will stop paying, I think. But the Britsih civil servants in the EU-administration aren't paid by the UK alone but by all other member countries as well.
And when they've voted 'leave', what about the UK-Commissioner?
Additionally, their MEPs are democratically elected - can they just be send away? Can they vote even if their home country isn't a member anymore?

The most pecular funny thing would be, if the UK gets the presidency of the Council of the EU - Consilium between July and December 2017.
Lordyaswas
 
  2  
Fri 13 May, 2016 11:29 am
An article from The Guardian.


Yes, The Guardian, and no, I have not taken to wearing sandals. Very Happy

The first few paragraphs are the usual Guardian breastbeating bit about the UK, even though the article is about the EU.
I'm not disagreeing with any of it, but it somewhat dilutes and deflects from the matter in hand, and is par for the course as far as the Guardian is concerned.

Anyway, it then finally moves onto the EU.


By the way, this article was written over four years ago, and it would be fair to say that for Portugal, Italy, Spain, Greece and even France now, things haven't got any better.


The harsh reality is that the EU has already failed

Deborah Orr
16 Dec 2011

"There are moments – usually when I'm in a busy, public place that is dominated by a giant screen flashing images of civil unrest, market meltdown, or Christine Lagarde, president of the International Monetary Fund, intoning that the world risks sliding into a 1930s-style slump – when I feel as if I am already living in the dystopian future that I saw as a kid in films such as Bladerunner. The human world, at those times, feels brittle and alienating, a place where our amazing technology does little for us beyond updating, in a flashy live spectacle, a frightening, unstoppable descent into chaos.

Yet at other times, living as I do in the affluent British capital, I am struck even more unsettlingly by the huge extent to which comfortable, pleasure-seeking lives go on regardless. The figures tell a different story, but the shops seem packed with people spending, the restaurants with people eating, and the theatres with people who still have plenty of money to invest in nothing more permanent than having a lovely time. Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we will die.

It is hard to work out whether all this breezy London evidence of resilience in the face of great flux is comforting or scary. On the one hand, it reassures – life goes on, money changes hands, the real economy persists – our developed and sophisticated culture surely is too big, too habitual, too established to fail. On the other, it disgusts. In the midst of continuing plenty, working people are taking out extortionate payday loans to put food on the table, legislation progresses through parliament, designed to whittle away cash for disabled children, and Theresa May, the home secretary, denies that feelings of dark detachment from the mainstream of society could possibly be valid or understandable. Back home in Motherwell, Scotland, no giant screens convey the bad news, and no grand festivities offer a counterpoint. Decline has been clearly observable for decades.

For many among us, the truth is the absolute opposite of what May claims, as she throws out her counter-intuitive gibberish about the summer riots. Failure to feel dark detachment would seem much more miraculous, in a country so polarised, so seemingly unable to share out its wealth, or even its wisdom, with some measure of equability, some care for the promotion of a sense of social cohesion, of belonging. But all the political and economic pressures seem to demand that we move away from hopes of social welfare, that despite all the evidence of massive and concentrated private wealth, the solution is to transfer yet more cash from the public to the private realm, this time by throwing billions at the eurozone, to staunch the wounds of its continuing crisis with enormous bloody poultices of cash. The woman at the head of the IMF, who warns us that without such action we all will suffer, has no electoral mandate.


It is almost amusing, that David Cameron's refusal to sign up to a treaty that has already proved materially inconsequential was hailed as so politically significant. Suddenly, in England anyway, he is perceived as being in a strong position. Two polls put his party ahead, and his Europhile coalition partners are so frightened of electoral wipeout that, speculation has it, they are all that stands between Cameron and the electoral majority he craves so much. He may have formally isolated himself, and Britain, in Europe. But in the most important respects, he is just like all the other European leaders, still. He very much wants the eurozone crisis to be "solved",but is not so keen on stumping up the cash that will do it. Politicians, and their treaties, have been made tiny, almost irrelevant, by the despotic and self-sustaining dictatorship of money.

One understands why the reluctance to bail out Europe is so widespread. The consensus now is that the eurozone was doomed to failure from the start. Failure has duly arrived, and paying out to breathe life into an always-dysfunctional system seems like throwing good money after bad. The putative treaty calling for closer fiscal union can be seen as further capitulation to the rule of economics. Cameron may have cited his own country's selfish regulatory reasons for rejecting the treaty. But his refusal could have been meaningful, had it been presented as a last stand against the inexorability of national democracy's decline, and international finance's continued, mindless, heartless domination. (In fact, his argument was that if finance rules, then Britain must remain its most assiduous handmaiden, the opposite of what it should have been.)

The desperate assumption is that the eurozone is "too big to fail", as the banks were. Would it, like the banks, simply continue quite blatantly with its bad habits, its unsquarable contradictions, if the money to bail it out could be found? The harsh reality is that it has failed already, with only fear of disorderly and unpredictable collapse keeping alive the vestiges of its grand ambitions. The trouble is that Europe, politically as well as economically, was a fine idea, but, in practice, was always hopelessly compromised. Even its supposed democratic accountability is faked. The election of members of the European parliament is more like the election of civil servants than politicians. The only high-profile MEPs tend to be those who gained their seat in order to argue against the EU's very existence.


As for the heads of state who make the political decisions, there are already more unelected people at the top table than is right or acceptable. But the technocrats are accepted anyway. Cameron may have opted out of talks on the Cannes treaty. But, as it turns out, his "people" will still be there, still throwing in their tuppence-worth, in the search for a formula that will appease "the markets". The democratic deficit in Europe has always been problematic, and now is teetering on absurd. This is not what Europe was supposed to be. I have always believed in the European ideal. But it is a struggle to identify, in the current mess, where any true expression of that ideal resides.

Amid all the concern and worry over the enormity of the task of propping up Europe lies a nagging feeling that if this institution really is too big, too dominant, too all-encompassing to fail, then it is also too big, too unwieldy, too powerful to succeed. How can something so significant and untouchable be brought to heel? What other institution could have the power to rein in such a behemoth? The IMF? Who wants it to rule the world?

They have their own physical gravity, these huge institutions, it seems, their very mass dictating an inexorable pull, irresistible merely by dint of their dominating existence, greedy for funding, greedy for obeisance, unaccountable, unfathomable. They are just … too big. Too big to be made to pay for their own failures, too big to be made to accept the consequences of the small print, the minuscule and easily ignorable print, that tells them that they have to bear it themselves when their risks blow up in their faces. It is time to choose between democratic accountability, or rule by the markets. This crisis has made one thing clear: we can't have both.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/dec/16/eu-already-failed-deborah-orr


Lordyaswas
 
  1  
Fri 13 May, 2016 11:46 am
@Lordyaswas,
And anyone who would like a little light reading....

Both from The Guardian......10 May 2016


Yes, The Guardian......

Quiet crisis: why battle to prop up Italy's banks is vital to EU stability
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/10/battle-prop-up-italy-banks-eu-brexit-grexit-bad-loans


'Everyone’s outraged': angry Greeks foresee Grexit and drachma's revival
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/10/greece-austerity-grexit-drachma


And from The Mail in January (also available on BBC NEWS, etc....)

Hollande declares France is in a 'state of economic emergency' and throws £1.5 BILLION at reducing unemployment
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3404921/Hollande-declares-France-state-economic-emergency-throws-1-5-BILLION-reducing-unemployment.html
saab
 
  1  
Fri 13 May, 2016 12:27 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
You know what - most people do not know when EU started.
I was not sure myself and looked it up after I got tired hearing Merkel´s assumpting no wars thanks to EU.
I remember very well when Sweden was making propaganda for Maastrich.
It was a summer day and I walked across the town square where there was a female politician saying that anyone against Maastrich was a NAZI. What kind of crap. Then I heard it again in another connection.
Pro EU people wanted a better Europe. The Nazi wanted a united Europe under them. So the comparasing was more than nasty.
Since then I have been very touchy when it comes to certain comments from
EU politicians.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 13 May, 2016 01:29 pm
@saab,
saab wrote:
Pro EU people wanted a better Europe. The Nazi wanted a united Europe under them. So the comparasing was more than nasty.
Since then I have been very touchy when it comes to certain comments from
EU politicians.
I've often heard that the EU and/or a united Europe has been related to Charlemagne (see for instance the "Karlspreis" (Charlemagne Prize). To connect it with Nazis isn't only nasty but historically incorrect. However, here in Germany anti-EU propagandists do use the same racialist doctrine as it was done 1941 in the New Order of Europe ("Neuordnung Europas"), even the closeness to Russia is similar ...
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 13 May, 2016 02:06 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Those 12 years of the Nazi rule ... we do have a personal guilt for a past generation's crimes and have to carry this burden.

But I don't think that you can connect all and everything to the cruelties which happened between 1933 and 1945 and which were done by us. (The The right-wing anti-immigration and anti-EU party Alternative for Germany [AfD] had a meeting tonight in the Munich Hofbräuhaus .... where Hitler made a speech in 1919. - That it had been the US-American Forces' headquarters in 1945/6 wasn't of interest for media.)

The Nazi past has become an element of cultural identity, one element. There are multiple others, and today's Germany isn't the same as that between 1933 and 1945.
The EU has (still) 28 member countries. Germany is one of it. Today's Germany, not that of 80 years ago.

This is my final response to this thread.
saab
 
  1  
Fri 13 May, 2016 02:32 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Personally I do not think that the younger generation can carry nor should carry the guilt for past generations. The very best they can do is to do things in a much better way.
What I have heard about AfD I would not like them either.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  4  
Sat 14 May, 2016 06:48 am
@Lordyaswas,
As much as it costs me to say, i agree that the EU lost its way. The euro currency could have worked with a smaller, tighter-nit group of countries. The whole idea of expansion to eastern europe was deeply flawed. The refugee crisis gave a devastating blow to the assumption that newly adopted eastern countries shared a sense of European solidarity.

This thing we call Europe is too big to fly as one plane. It's the airbus 380 of politics.

There's a historical dimension to this: The post WW2 generations had a historic window of opportunity to build a united Europe. The idea was to use Europeans' want for lasting peace into a supranational structure, an economic and political union. That window of opportunity is closing and the verdict is severe. The attempt failed victim of its own early successes. Like a gambler who would win early in the game, our politicians and eurocrats betted bigger and bigger, and they lost.

I have no idea what comes next.


0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Sat 14 May, 2016 01:10 pm
I'm sorry to see Walter's exit from the conversation. I invite him to return whenever he wants to.

I've been reading with interest this week, and Lordy's initial comment held true: there's a lot of emotion around this issue. I feel that Brexit is a lot more important for all of us than relatively sparse news coverage indicates. I know I rail against neoliberalism a bit - but Brexit is so intertwined with this global struggle, it is practically a canary in the neoliberal coal mine.

This article was eye-opening. http://www.globalresearch.ca/brexit-neoliberalism-and-the-eurozone-what-is-at-stake-in-the-british-referendum/5522380

It takes a big opening swipe at Obama, but fact-based; just seemed out-of-the-blue. I think it adds to the urgency to the conversation.

A rather breathtaking component to this and other neoliberal global issues is a great docu on Netflix by Noam Chomsky. https://youtu.be/zI_Ik7OppEI

Here's Iain Duncan Smith giving his opinion: https://youtu.be/VrwIfXsXbic

I was watching a speech by Chomsky wherein he said he worries about Britain leaving because he thinks they will be even more subservient to the US (he was loathe to use that expression, but couldn't think of a better one.) I wonder with what level of enthusiasm a hobbled EU would try to punish those who leave.

I thank everyone who spoke about their feelings and insights on Brexit. From my political standpoint - admitting I'm still learning about historical components and trying to hear so many voices that deserve to contribute to the conversation - - - anything that weakens the crushing globalization that is rapidly taking power and money from the bulk of us and delivering it to the few is what I support.

I still don't know everything I need to know to make a definitive statement, but I am against disenfranchisement of the regular people - and Brexit seems to be shaking a defiant fist at that dark power in my estimation.
saab
 
  3  
Sat 14 May, 2016 01:42 pm
@Lash,
In June 1992 the Danes voted pro or contra to Maastricht Treaty.
The politicians were very much for it and were suprised by the Danes voting against a much closer political union.
Norway´s politicians wanted Norway to join, but the Norwegians said no.
Swedes were voting November 13th 1994 about joining EU. 52,3% said yes
and 46,8% said no.
October 1994 the Finns voted for or against EU membership. Yes 56,9%.
So really from the beginning about half the population was sceptical to a membership.
As the political union is getting closer and less democratic more people in Scandinavia say "This is not the EU we voted yes for".
Somehow the politicians have closed both ears and eyes for what was going on in the minds of many people for many years.
What we do not see and do not hear does not exist.
That has unfortunately given very right winged parties a chance to develope.
This would probably never had happened had the politicians listened more to people.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 14 May, 2016 02:53 pm
@Lash,
Thanks for the re-invitation Wink

Quite recently, I've heard in an English pub that it has been God's idea to make a large ditch between the British islands and the European continent.
(Some of the pro and contra Brexit speeches are even better.)

I've always tried to find out, since I've first been to England more than years ago, why there is a quite common anti-European feeling, open or under the surface, ("Fog in Channel; Continent Cut Off".)

Ædgyth of England was, as the wife of Otto I, Holy Roman Emperor.
Through this connection, German merchants ("mercatoris imperalis") got a lot of privileges and freedoms of trade in England. (Those "easterlings" mainly came from the Rhineland and Westphalia.

Between the end of the 10th century until about 1450 the export and import to and from Britain was nearly completely done by continental Europeans. Germans, to verify this. (With a few decades interruption, when Dutch and French merchants made some good business as well.) And those Germans were really nearly all from Cologne and Westphalia. (In the 14th century, the Hanseatic contor in Norwich was led by Westphalians named Clemens Rasch, August Bange, Bartel Braun and Johannes Busch.)

I honestly think that all this had a great "genetic" influence, especially, since after the end of the Hanseatic period (in England) centuries of glorious time in the British Empire's history can be noted.

Lash
 
  1  
Sat 14 May, 2016 03:09 pm
@saab,
Your comments here really underscore my feelings that "our politicians" push for further globalization (with huge consolidations like the EU and TPP) so that soon, our voices don't matter and aren't heard.

I really felt this way when Obama secretly signed the "fast-track" deal for TPP ( http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/sessions-little-surprise-obama-quietly-signed-the-tpp/article/2582370 ) ...and signed us away to Monsanto without giving the public a chance to speak. ( http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/03/31/obama-signs-order-that-protects-maker-of-genetically-modified-crops/ )

I'm amazed that more people aren't fighting this power grab tooth and nail. I blame the two-party system for the stupidity of defending one corrupt politician in preference over another. We are sinking into a bottomless pit.

(Going to read more about Maastricht. Thank you.)
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Sat 14 May, 2016 03:18 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Thank you for fodder for a fascinating discussion with my kid, a thoughtful history major. I'm nodding re your possible metaphor of the relationships between Germany and England and the geographical division. And, I'll be reading re:

Quote:
Ædgyth of England was, as the wife of Otto I, Holy Roman Emperor.
Through this connection, German merchants ("mercatoris imperalis") got a lot of privileges and freedoms of trade in England. (Those "easterlings" mainly came from the Rhineland and Westphalia.


Edit: I've been thinking about how history affects racial relationships in the US, and I was laughing about how fortunate I've been that US history is so very brief. Trying to understand mores and relationships in Europe is a little more involved....haha. Anyway, glad to have a thread of connection between Germany and Britain from you to start reading.

Thank you so much!
Lash
 
  1  
Sat 14 May, 2016 03:37 pm
For any hapless (non-EU) souls following, the Maastricht Treaty:
http://europa.eu/eu-law/decision-making/treaties/pdf/treaty_on_european_union/treaty_on_european_union_en.pdf
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 14 May, 2016 11:18 pm
@Lash,
Some more fodder: William of Malmesbury wrote in the early 12th century that London was full with rich inhabitants and "merchants resorting thither from all nations, more especially out of Germany".
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 15 May, 2016 12:56 am
According to former London mayor Johnson, the EU wants a superstate, just as Hitler did.

Boris Johnson invokes Winston Churchill’s war-time defiance, urging the British people to be “the heroes of Europe” again, set the country free and save the EU from itself by voting to leave in the referendum next month. (Source)

"Winston Churchill in Zurich I9th September 1946" wrote:
If Europe were once united in the sharing of its common inheritance, there would be no limit to the happiness, to the prosperity and glory which its three or four hundred million people would enjoy. Yet it is from Europe that have sprung that series of frightful nationalistic quarrels.
(Source: The Churchill Society

Quote:
It fills me with pride that my name will be added to the list of brilliant winners, who all contributed so well to the inspiring idea of European unity and brotherhood.
(Source: Churchill's speech after being awarded the International Charlemagne Prize
saab
 
  2  
Sun 15 May, 2016 01:12 am
I wonder how much people talked about Germany before 1871. I somehow imagen they talked about Preussians. Bavarians or Hessians. When I read older Danish references Germany is not mentioned.
I wonder too when the Brittish started the anti Continent feelings.
The Danes are absolutly pro British. We Swedes used to talk about travelling to the continent. On the Continent one could hear snears about the Brits -
It must have started before the WWI because I read Fountane`s book "One Summer in London" and he is not always kind to the Londoners.
There is a certain resentement within countries to other parts of the country and between countries. These feelings are very old, sometimes serious and sometimes just fun. But having to be forced together under one more or less unknown leader is not easy.
Up to not so long ago the Danes would not trust Preussia later saying Germany. Today 70% have a positive attitude to the Germans. Only 3% are very negative.
The Swedes did /do not trust Russia.
We are full of cliches.
saab
 
  1  
Sun 15 May, 2016 01:17 am
@Walter Hinteler,
It is not just the former London mayor saying that. I have seen it in letters to the editor in Denmark - as Napoleon and Hitler.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 15 May, 2016 02:17 am
@saab,
saab wrote:
I wonder how much people talked about Germany before 1871.
I've thought about such since I first became really interested in history .... about 60 years ago.

And I do think that "we" have a different approach to rulers, governments etc than others due to our history. At least, due to this history we still have a different "local" governing than in most other countries.

Just one example about "Germany": my native town was founded in 833 (at least, the first written source is from the time, but settlements there go back to the Iron Period), got town privileges in 1217.
Around 700, it was a kind of Frankish outpost on Saxon territory.
Around 900 it was part of the County of Werl, which was a territory from central Germany up to the North Sea and later became the County of Arnsberg. The latter was aquired partly by the Prince Archbishop of Cologne in 1102.
So my native town actually was a Cologne territory until 1806 (or a Bavarian, since many Cologne archbishops were Wittelsbacher).

http://i67.tinypic.com/1zn1kr9.jpg

From 1806 till 1815, my native town belonged to Hesse-Darmstadt, from 1815 onwards until 1945 to Prussia.

From 1945 (the US-Forces arrived in my native town on 30 March) until 1990, we were part of the British Zone of Occupation until the Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany (15 March 1991).



0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sun 15 May, 2016 02:18 am
@saab,
saab wrote:

It is not just the former London mayor saying that. I have seen it in letters to the editor in Denmark - as Napoleon and Hitler.
That certainly might be so. But he is perhaps the next leader of the British Conservatives and Prime Minister.
 

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