Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

Ah, I see that Project Fear is now joining forces with Project Discredit.
Surprise surprise.

OK....I have no idea as to whether this has been posted yet, but it's absolutely worth an airing.

The Remain people will do their utmost to discredit it, but will probably not have spent the One Hour Eleven minutes in watching it without feeling a regular blush of embarrassment about what sort of Organisation they are trying to defend.

Warning: If you are a non British, almost religious devotee of the EU, then watching this may cause palpitations followed by the need to inform us through graphs and charts, just why the EU is the most important thing that has happened to the world since the birth of Jesus.

If, however, you actually want to have a look to see what is underneath the EU's skirts, then I would highly recomnend at least ten minutes of the film in order to get a good idea.

Second Warning : One or maybe two of the people in this film are regarded by the Remain campaign as the equivalent of an anti-christ.

The other (many) people are drawn from all walks of life, ranging from the humbke working class right up to top Politicians.

All I ask is ten minutes, and more if you have the time.....

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@Lordyaswas,

Farage is on the EU-payroll, by the way. As is his (German born) wife.
Taking into account his wife’s salary, the Farages are getting from the EU about £110,000 per year. Plus expenses.

(Yes, I know that he said, he's underpaid and he would need to earn £250,000 to match what the EU paid him because of taxation, secretarial allowances and "all the other games you could play".)

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@Walter Hinteler,

And Johnson at least acknowledged the EU was using "different methods" to the Nazis. (I only now got the [digital] print edition of The Sunday Telegraph.)

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Quote:

Being European means not looking away and pretending not to notice. Because passivity is the fertile soil in which intolerance and hatred grow

Interesting opinion by Italian Gianrico Carofiglio: Difference is Europe’s dream – indifference, its nightmare

Quote:

Antoine and Melvil Leiris, European citizens. Giulio Regeni, European citizen. And Tess Asplund, European citizen, 42, Swedish, black. Alone, her fist clenched and raised, she faced 300 neo-Nazis who had taken to the streets in Borlänge, north-west of Stockholm, to demonstrate against immigrants.

“It’s not right that Nazis should march down our streets,” she said when asked why she had done it.

European citizens. Against the indifferent.

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Both sides EU and not EU people have things I am for and things I am against.
I have and have had - for some reason - several relatives and friends working for EU in Brussels and some just living in Brussels.
The ones working for EU gets lots of privileges and money.
The ones working as normal people just work and get paid under the table - pay no taxes. The employers do not want it any other way. A freelance person simply does not pay taxes. Kind of like in Greece.
"It makes a difference if I am an European as then I will not be indifferent when it comes to discrimination."
I my opinion it has absolutely nothing to do with being a European - that is discriminating crap. Because every living in Europe and having a citizenship in one of the 46 European countries is a European.
I have to see to that there is no discrimination in my family, amongst my friends, at work, in school, in my city, in my country. That has nothing to do with what nationality I have nor if I call myself European- it has to do with my behavior.
People who proudly tell me "I am a European" - I usually ask two questions
1. How many countries does Europe have" - so far noone knew
2.Which European politician do you agree the most with? - no answer as people as rule does not really no anybody except someone from their own country.

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@saab,

Generally I agree with the above post but that said those 2 questions are harsh in the sense that they don't necessarilly imply there is not an European identity in peoples minds. I am a proud, very proud European with origins from at least 3 European countries, perhaps more. I didn't care to study 600 years of family links...anyway there is nothing wrong in looking for a disctint European general identity. Note the word general here, because one of the best things Europe has is diversity of culture. Mingled with a common identity.

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@Lordyaswas,

EU is far from perfect right so what ? EU is NECESSARY !!! That's the crux of the matter. Think you have a choice ? Think again. You my good Sir are a fool. A dinossaur.
Sheeesh talking about missing the point entirely...

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@saab,

saab wrote:

People who proudly tell me "I am a European" - I usually ask two questions
1. How many countries does Europe have" - so far noone knew
2.Which European politician do you agree the most with? - no answer as people as rule does not really no anybody except someone from their own country.

That says a lot about those whom you asked but not about Europe.

On the other hand, since I don't live in another European country than Germany, I don't know why I should agree with a politician of another country ... besides, it involves me or Germany (or the EU or the Council of Europe) somehow.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

I'd like to hear the insights and honest feelings of members experiencing this issue. Personal attack isn't necessary or welcome on this thread.

Feel free to talk about how it affects you, concerns, ideas etc; but please refrain from attacking people personally for sharing.

I'll report additional personal attacks.

No hard feelings intended.

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@Lash,

Lash wrote:

I'd like to hear the insights and honest feelings of members experiencing this issue.

Well, this excludes everyone besides the Lord (or any other UK-citizen).

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@Walter Hinteler,

Thanks for letting me know I need to clarify my statement, Walter. I'm constantly finding out how poorly I communicate.

I think Brexit affects everyone in the EU; I'd even extend that to anyone who knows people in the EU who've talked to them about what's going on.

Obviously, citizens of member states feel that they also have a big stake in Britain's decision. I'd guess there are states in Europe who aren't members? This would have an impact on them as well.

I just don't want anyone who is opening up about their experience or insights to be shut down by criticism. We should all feel free to discuss.

I'm learning so much from so many varying viewpoints; for me to be able to hear your voices about something so huge (to me) is a distinct luxury.

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@Lash,

Lash wrote:

I'd guess there are states in Europe who aren't members? This would have an impact on them as well.

The European Union has 28 member states. Europe itself consist of 50 internationally recognized sovereign states, of which 44 have their capital city within Europe. (All of the 50 except Belarus, Kazakhstan and the State of Vatican City are members of the Council of Europe.)

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The successor of Boris Johnson as editor of The Spectator, Matthew d'Ancona, wrote an opinion in The Guardian, worth reading, in my opinion:
Boris Johnson has pressed the big red button marked ‘Hitler’. Watch out

Quote:

The EU referendum campaign was never going to be bonhomous in its final weeks. Nonetheless, the bitterness creeping into the debate is sometimes startling.

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In every nation in Europe - when not having a dictator - we could openly discuss and be critical to our government and out politicians.
For years one had to be very careful about saying anyhting critical about EU or the Euro. The media avoided any form of critcal articles.
Then all of a sudden critisim started openly and often hateful. The tone is not nice.
Personally I do not dare to say anything openly critical except when amongst very close friends whom I know think like I do.
I do not want UK to leave, I do not want Turkey to be part of EU, I do not want the extreem right marching and I did not want the extreem left either marching and killing.
The hope was a Europe, where the nations were living in peace with one another. The hope is it will be able to, there is fear EU will fall apart and some even predict a war.

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@saab,

I think I'm spoiled by what I feel is freedom of speech.
When I initially heard that German citizens face legal charges if they deny the Holocaust, I was shocked. Just yesterday, my daughter and I were discussing the rise of Donald Trump, and somewhere in the conversation, she said she thinks part of his rise is attributable to his brash anti-PC. I was skeptical, but she tells me in many countries - she said in Canada (I haven't researched it yet) - people can be arrested for insulting people online. [I find this very hard to believe, but then I think of the German law I just mentioned.]

In our universities, weird things are happening. Far left groups seem to have created what they consider to be an acceptable narrative about several social issues. If you don't buy in to that narrative - or keep your mouth shut - you are vilified, ostracised, and your grades can suffer if you debate the ultra-liberal narrative. Students scream at dissenters and then claim they need to retreat to a "safe space" away from people outside their groupthinky echo chamber.

For people being herded around by a very strict worldview opinion, Trump - as stupid as he is - is preferable to being forced to comply with the narrow narrative. He tells the establishment to kiss his ass - and it is pretty obvious, plenty of other people have been dying to do the same thing.

People are tired of being told what to think and what they can and can't say, I think.

I think this is a global issue.

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@saab,

saab wrote:

For years one had to be very careful about saying anyhting critical about EU or the Euro. The media avoided any form of critcal articles.

Where was that?

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@Lash,

Lash wrote:

When I initially heard that German citizens face legal charges if they deny the Holocaust, I was shocked.

You will be shocked more that since the end of the Third Reich, it has been illegal in Germany to display the swastika, give Hitler salutes or embrace other symbols of the Nazi era. And even a worse shock for you: similar situation in Austria and a couple of other countries. (But the owner of a dog wouldn't be persecutted here, when his dog seems to make a Hitler salute in a youtube video ... as it happened a couple of days ago in the UK.)

These laws, btw, where introduced by the Allied Occupation Powers in 1945.

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@Lash,

Lash wrote:

she said in Canada (I haven't researched it yet) - people can be arrested for insulting people online.

You don't get arrested here (actually, seldom arrests are made) but libel is in our criminal code, too. And there's no difference how and where it is done.

In common law, the law of libel originated in the 17th century in England. (In German law, it already has been coded in the "Survey of Saxon Law" [Sachsenspiegel] in the 13th century ... and 'travelled' through the various criminal codes of our history.)

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@Walter Hinteler,

I'm going to try to speak carefully because I sincerely don't want to insult anyone.

I don't blame Germans for my "shock" or the law I'm talking about. I also think it's sad that Germans who weren't even alive during the era we're discussing are held to such a standard due to the behavior of others.

I worry that such laws - which I think are an unhealthy over-correction = cause more problems than they avoid.

This type of censorship is bleeding through the states, and I think is partially responsible for the rise of Trump, as I was saying to saab.

Even if we get angry, I think the dialogue is so important and the suppression of speech is dangerous.

What do you think? Do you feel free to say what you think?

1 Reply

@Lash,

The law about Nazi enblems etc is even part of our Basic Law (constitution):

Quote:

Article 139
[Continued applicability of denazification provisions]

The legal provisions enacted for the “Liberation of the German People from National Socialism and Militarism” shall not be affected by the provisions of this Basic Law.

I don't think it to be "censorship". Using Nazi symbols in the original way (and only that is meant) is ... the same as it was done by the Nazis.

I've mostly felt free what to say, only that there are some conventions where you better think twice before you say something.

I've just looked through the history of libel laws (in German law, there is no distinction between libel and slander). Today, the a defamation claim must be notified to the Public Prosecution before they start an investigation, and in Medieval Times and later, it was mainly dealt with at minor (lay) courts, punished with a fine.

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Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

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