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Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 31 Jan, 2017 01:07 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Here's a pretty good world map from 1808.
http://www.worldmapsonline.com/historicalmaps/kr-1808-world.htm
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Tue 31 Jan, 2017 01:12 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
That's a pre-continental drift map though. The Ural, traditionally seen as the western edge of Europe, is not tectonically active. On a more recent map, Eurasia would go all the way from Lisbon to Beijin.
georgeob1
 
  2  
Sun 12 Feb, 2017 11:55 am
@Olivier5,
The term Europe, in most conventional use, refers to the territory between the British Isles in the west and the Ural mountains in the east, and from the Arctic to the Mediterranean. Certainly cultures languages and political systems have arisen there with numerous (though not always universal) common features to make it a meaningful thing both in history and in the organization of political, economic and cultural activity today. There have always been important dvisions within Europe, based on language, various nationalistic and ethnic concepts, religion and political systems, but they have not erased the recogniozed unifying factors that remain, either among the population or the historians who chronicle their lives.

Certainly the physical separation of Great Britain from the continental land mass has been a signifficant factor in the history of Britain, just as have been the Alps in the History of the Swiss. However both are part of Europe, and both were equally affected by the migration of peoples across the continent several millenia ago,

Geological time scales are about a million times those relating to human history, so it is no surprise that the geographical terminology of the two are inconsistent. ( not to mention the pedantical fussiness of many geologists, who appear to think their terminology should be as lasting as the rocks they love so well.)

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 12 Feb, 2017 11:56 am
@georgeob1,
Interesting take.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Wed 15 Feb, 2017 05:29 pm
Britain wants out.
Canada wants in.

I'm really pleased with this news.

http://www.macleans.ca/politics/european-parliament-approves-canada-eu-free-trade-deal/

Quote:
OTTAWA – Lawmakers in Canada and Europe are hailing Wednesday’s approval of the Canada-EU free trade deal by the European Parliament as a win for the values of openness in the face of anti-trade movements, including the Donald Trump administration.



Trudeau the other day
https://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/news/world/2017/02/13/five-revealing-moments-from-the-trudeau-trump-day/trudeau-trump.jpg.size.custom.crop.1086x712.jpg

Trudeau today
http://www.macleans.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/MAC45_TRADE_POST02.jpg
McGentrix
 
  3  
Wed 15 Feb, 2017 06:21 pm
@ehBeth,
The thing about this picture is the context. Trump had a quarter in his hand just before that picture was taken.

https://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/news/world/2017/02/13/five-revealing-moments-from-the-trudeau-trump-day/trudeau-trump.jpg.size.custom.crop.1086x712.jpg

Right after, Trump pulled it from behind Trudeau's ear. It was the cutest thing. Trudeau was all like shaking his head wondering if he had more money in his head.

Kids these days, I tell ya.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  3  
Thu 16 Feb, 2017 07:17 am
@georgeob1,
Indeed, Europe is a cultural concept, a social geography concept, not a geophysical concept.

Therefore, one could argue that the UK forms part of the "European culture". Although quite a few Brits would disagree with that statement, one can find some evidence for it: England once part of the Roman Empire, the Brits are in majority Christian, they speak an Indo-European language coming from French and German, their monarchs have been from other European countries, their cultural production has been influenced by other Europeans' and vice-versa, etc. etc.

But one stating (as was stated in this thread) that the British Isles are part of the "European continent" would be on very shacky ground because 1) by definition, an island is not "on the continent" and 2) the concept of a "European continent" itself is problematic.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Thu 16 Feb, 2017 11:01 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

Britain wants out.
Canada wants in.

I'm really pleased with this news.

http://www.macleans.ca/politics/european-parliament-approves-canada-eu-free-trade-deal/

Quote:
OTTAWA – Lawmakers in Canada and Europe are hailing Wednesday’s approval of the Canada-EU free trade deal by the European Parliament as a win for the values of openness in the face of anti-trade movements, including the Donald Trump administration.


Canada has a very large trade surplus with the United States and an equally large deficit in its trade with the rest of the world. It certainly needs whatever help it can get in reducing this deficit and the vulnerability that results from such dependence on a favorable trade balance with only one nation. I doubt that Europe will make up the difference.


0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Thu 16 Feb, 2017 11:04 am
http://globalnews.ca/news/3253284/trudeau-touts-merits-of-free-trade-in-european-parliament-speech/

Quote:
STRASBOURG, France – Prime Minister Justin Trudeau showed the European Union some much needed love today in a highly-anticipated speech following its ratification of the free trade pact with Canada.

But he also warned that if the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement doesn’t succeed it could be the last deal of its kind.

“The European Union is a truly remarkable achievement, and an unprecedented model for peaceful co-operation. Canada knows that an effective European voice on the global stage isn’t just preferable – it’s essential,” Trudeau said.


snip

Quote:
In his speech, Trudeau said people who complain that trade deals benefit only a few have a valid concern, but deals like the Canada-EU free trade pact are good for all.

Trudeau delivered that message in his much-anticipated address to the European Parliament today, his attempt to argue for free trade in the face of an increasingly hostile, populist opposition that includes the Trump administration.

“Now, we live in a time when many people are worried that the current system only benefits society’s luckiest few. And their concern is valid,” Trudeau said.

“The anxiety people have towards the economy and trade – the worry that our kids won’t have access to the same jobs and opportunities that we had – can be addressed only if we ensure that trade is inclusive, so that everyone benefits.”

But Trudeau said the pact does in fact deliver on that.


quite a bit more at the link

__

I'm almost giddily happy about this.
I'm not a NAFTA fan at all. I prefer TPP and this possible alliance.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Thu 16 Feb, 2017 11:33 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

But one stating (as was stated in this thread) that the British Isles are part of the "European continent" would be on very shacky ground because 1) by definition, an island is not "on the continent" and 2) the concept of a "European continent" itself is problematic.


It appears we largely agree. I don't think that the expressed concerns about whether the UK is or is not part of Europe, whether as a social, economic ,cultural or geographic concept is any more useful than is a similar consideration of the Swiss, or Norwegians, Greeks or others.

The UK has played an important, often decisive role in the history of Europe for well over a millenium, all while maintaining a detectable 'apartness' by virtue of its physical separation.

Now that the EU has evolved from a common market for economic development after the ravages of WWII, to an increasingly proscriptive, intrusive and bureaucratic government, the question of continued membership has arisen in several EU governments beyond the UK, including the Netherlands and France most recently. I don't think there should be any particular surprise at this turn of events, particularly given the EU's history over the past tweo decades of ignoring or skirting inconveniuent results in variuous national plebicites.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 05:23 am
@georgeob1,
The UK was never in the EU to make the EU work better. Right from the start, they were in the EU to prevent it from making progress. It was deemed better for their national interest to keep an eye on Europe, so that's what they did. They was never any attempt to play by the rules, adopt a common vision or anything like that. Brexit is an opportunity for Europe to deepen its integration.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 08:44 am
@Olivier5,
Interesting take on the process. London appears to have become a very EU city, but your comments ring true about the past three decades or so. The deepening integration you suggest may exacerbate tensions already detectable in France and the Netherlands, and, as well, the persistent North-South divide that appears to have been a factor in Italian politics of late.

The EU also faces an interesting convergence of growing internal threats (depopulation and demographic decline) and emerging external ones, particularly in the Mid East and North Africa. How it will resolve them appears far from clear to me.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 09:22 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
The EU also faces an interesting convergence of growing internal threats (depopulation and demographic decline) ...
In 2015 (latest figures I could get), the population growth for the 28-EU was 3.5%. Enough, in my opinion.

Edit: Demographics of the European Union @ wikipedia
ehBeth
 
  1  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 09:54 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Brexit is an opportunity for Europe to deepen its integration.


how does the trade deal with Canada work with that?
ehBeth
 
  1  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 10:02 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Yup, EU and Canada are growing.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-2016-census-population-1.3970314

I was surprised to see the overall Canadian rate as being at 5% - it's way off from what was estimated

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2002.html

0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 10:33 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Indeed, Europe is a cultural concept, a social geography concept, not a geophysical concept.

Therefore, one could argue that the UK forms part of the "European culture". Although quite a few Brits would disagree with that statement, one can find some evidence for it: England once part of the Roman Empire, the Brits are in majority Christian, they speak an Indo-European language coming from French and German, their monarchs have been from other European countries, their cultural production has been influenced by other Europeans' and vice-versa, etc. etc.

But one stating (as was stated in this thread) that the British Isles are part of the "European continent" would be on very shacky ground because
1) by definition, an island is not "on the continent" and 2) the concept of a "European continent" itself is problematic.


For once I fully agree with you...hope France takes the oportunity it now has out from the Brit idiocy for a strong leadership for total integration which is the only viable step in the modern geo political context if Europe aspires to be vaguely relevant.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 10:59 am
@Walter Hinteler,
It is always amusing to see that georgeob continues to chime in on matters related to events in other countries. I hear he still complains bitterly when others comment on happenings in the US.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 11:05 am
@ehBeth,
Well, that only proves that all the Irish people (and those with Irish ancestry) are fabulously articulate, skilled wordsmiths and poets - just generally wonderful with language basically.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 12:40 pm
@ehBeth,
It could demonstrate the value of the EU block to strike good trade deals, and it may lead some to say that Canada has replaced the UK as the US proxy in the EU trade space. There's concern about that.
oralloy
 
  1  
Fri 17 Feb, 2017 03:18 pm
@Olivier5,
The UK was never our proxy. They are our ally and share some of our views. But they hold those views on their own, not because of us.

Canada's trade deal has little to do with the US. The US was pursuing our own trade deal, but now Trump is against trade deals, so we're out.

Check back 75 years from now and maybe our descendants will elect someone who is pro-trade again.
0 Replies
 
 

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