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Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 07:05 am
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:
The Pound has stayed fairly level since its slight drop after the Brexit vote.
On the one hand you say that the official rate is what matters.
And than you give your own and private view about the pound's downfall.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2dqvpjk.jpg
inkhumming
 
  1  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 07:22 am
@Builder,
Quote:
Thirdly, Britain and the US are thick as thieves; The LIBOR scandal will show that, if anyone's interested in looking.


Please explain.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 08:05 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I think calling the roughly 9% drop in the Pound relative to the euro a "downfall" implies a bit more than is actually involved here. This relative variation is in roughly the same range as the normal variations (up and down) of between the Euro and the dollar. The value of the Euro is propped up in major part by the German economy and its very strong trade surplus (with a large fraction of its exports going to its EU partners. The effective devaluation of the Pound will likely ease the UK's continuing trade with other EU nations, possibly creating forces favorable to an equitable settlement of its continuing economic & trade ties to the EU.
Blickers
 
  1  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 08:14 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter, even your own graph shows a fairly flat line since the Brexit vote. The Pound declined from around $1.45 to around $1.30 and has stayed stable since, in fact it's even inching up. Calling this a "downfall" is hilarious.

The Euro has gone up slightly since the Brexit vote, so your chart, even with that, is still reasonably flat. There was a small drop, and a stable currency value since. Here's a chart that's even flatter than yours, Walter, Pound vs Dollar.

http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah279/LeviStubbs/Pound%20vs%20Euro%201%20year%20Aug%2018_zpsjoepdiek.jpg

As you can see, on Feb 27, months before the Brexit vote, the Pound was $1.39. On August 3, well after the Brexit vote, it was $1.33. Georgeob1 is right, the difference is NOT much greater than the normal up-and-down of the currency markets. The gloom & doom scenario is not taking place.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 08:32 am
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:
Walter, the gloom & doom scenario is not taking place.
I've never thought (and written) that regarding the exchange there would and will be a "gloom & doom scenario".

What I have thought (and written) is that no-one seems to have known (and still doesn't) what 'Brexit' means.

A private conservative blog even last week had the idea of creating a Commonwealth Union (CU) and the Greater Commonwealth Free Trade Area [GCFTA], which would include both members and non-members of the Commonwealth of Nations.
They think about an "Inner Circle" (Australia, Canada, Denmark [sic!], New Zealand, Norway [sic!], United Kingdom and Dependencies), a "Mid Circle" ((Argentina, Chile, Finland, Sweden, Uruguay), and an "Outer Circle" (Japan, South Africa, South Korea, Switzerland,Venezuela and possibly others).
Blickers
 
  0  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 08:44 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote Walter:
Quote:
They think about an "Inner Circle" (Australia, Canada, Denmark [sic!], New Zealand, Norway [sic!], United Kingdom and Dependencies)

No sic! necessary for Norway and Denmark. Remember, London started out as a Danish settlement, and King Harold's crummy brother, Tostig, teamed up with Harald of Norway to take over British territory shortly before the Battle of Hastings. So Norway and Denmark are part of English history, if you take a historical perspective. Only difference between them and the other countries is that while Australia, Canada and the others were once English colonies, England was once a Danish and Norwegian colony. Still part of the family, so to speak. Very Happy
inkhumming
 
  2  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 08:47 am
@georgeob1,
Just a few thoughts:

Quote:
I think calling the roughly 9% drop in the Pound relative to the euro a "downfall" implies a bit more than is actually involved here


It's a one eighth drop from 1.30 to 1.16.

Quote:
The value of the Euro is propped up in major part by the German economy and its very strong trade surplus (with a large fraction of its exports going to its EU partners


The strength of the EUR is against other currencies , the large fraction of EU partner surpluses is irrelevant to the consideration.

Quote:
The effective devaluation of the Pound will likely ease the UK's continuing trade with other EU nations,


Bolster.

0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 08:56 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

[What I have thought (and written) is that no-one seems to have known (and still doesn't) what 'Brexit' means.


Understandable, because it's never been done before. However. we'll all find out as things progress. It seems very improbable to me that the British might reverse their earlier decision, however stranger things have occurred. I suspect the world moves continuously between excessive organization and structure to too little (i.e. tyranny and chaos) , followed usually by the development of new structures. Both Europe and the EU will survive, and I expect both will benefit from a perhaps much needed shock.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 09:31 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
Both Europe and the EU will survive, ...
I have no doubts about Europe - you need quite a few bombs to destroy it Wink

I don't think that the then 27-EU would suffer a lot without the UK (or England/Wales, if NI and Scotland would decide to join the EU).
But I do think that it would be better with the UK as a member - for the EU but for the UK as well.

Though there are geographical, historical and longstanding economical ties beteen the British Isles and continental Europe - many citizens on those islands never have been emotionally closely connected to the continent.
That has changed over the last decades - but these prejudices and preconceived opinions are deeper than holidays in Spain and France and boozing tours to Prague.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 09:34 am
@Blickers,
Nor Denmark or Norway have ever been a member of the Commonwealth.

But since you refer to history ... the Angles and Saxons came from the very same part of the world were the Hannoveranians live, the Battenbergs, the Coburg-Gothas ... Wink

And between 1157 and 1611 most trade between Great Britain and the continent was done via a "trade union" from the above not mentioned country, too. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  4  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 10:48 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
It seems very improbable to me that the British might reverse their earlier decision, however stranger things have occurred.

It wasn't really "the British"; Scotland and Northern Ireland had a majority of Remain voters, and the vote was quite close - 52% leave and 48% Remain, and the voter turnout nationally was 72%, so 28% of voters didn't bother. Finally, referendums are not legally binding in Britain.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 11:08 am
@contrex,
David Goodhart and Eric Kaufmann wrote recently an article about that, published by the Fabian Society:
A respectable Englishness
Quote:
The emergence, or rather re-emergence, of England and Englishness continues apace.The Brexit vote was in part inspired by UKIP (a sort of English national party), and supported most decisively by England (53.4 per cent to 46.6 per cent). 72 per cent of those who think of themselves as English voted out compared with 43 per cent of those whose primary identity is British.

But first a word of warning. Englishness is not sweeping all before it in the way that Scottishness (alone in the United Kingdom) has become the overwhelmingly dominant identity in Scotland. About three-quarters of people in England still describe themselves as a combination of British and English and this figure has not changed in 20 years.

It is nevertheless true that when people are forced to choose which identity they are more attached to, Englishness has gained ground over Britishness. The British Social Attitudes Surveys show that in both Scotland and England, ‘small nation’ identities gained substantial ground over Britishness between 1992 and 1999. In 1992 over 60 per cent of English people selected British as their most important national identity against just 30 per cent for English. The ratio of British to English then declined steadily across four survey waves, from over 2:1 in favour of British in 1992 to 1:1 by 1999. But this ratio has not altered in any clear way since, despite increased Scottish political assertiveness.

... ... ...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 04:27 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter, Why do you think that has happened? As an outsider and frequent visitor to England, it's an interesting subject.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 10:32 pm
@cicerone imposter,
As long as I've been visiting the UK (mainly England, a fewer times Scotland), since 1963, I've noticed that already .... a bit.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 10:36 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I started visiting England since the late fifties when I was stationed in Morocco with the USAF. London became one of my favorite cities to visit because of the great museums and theater district. It helped that I didn't have any problems with the language. The food in the beginning was really gross, but they improved over the years, and now one can find gourmet food in England. Before then, the pubs served good food, and that's where I ate many of my meals.
I still remember on one of my early visits when I ordered a sandwich. It had thin slices of bread with one thin slice of meat in it.
roger
 
  1  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 10:42 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Boy, you must have served in a different time and place than I. Five years in the army and I can't think of a single person that traveled to visit museums and theater - unless you are using 'theater' as a kind of code word.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 10:52 pm
@roger,
Sorry, I didn't make my self clear.
When I was in the USAF stationed in Morocco in the late fifties for one year, I was able to go on R&Rs to London, Paris and Madrid. Many years later, I had the opportunity to travel, and was able to revisit those same places again - in addition to many others.
Those many years later on my visit to London, I was able to go see the shows in the theater district in London, and also to a concert by Jerry Goldsmith where they played the music of popular movies. That theater was the Barbican. On one of my one week visits in London, I went to see three shows.
One was the Mousetrap, one of the longest running shows.

I didn't know this before, but Jerry Goldsmith performed 40 years of movie music.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 19 Aug, 2016 12:00 pm
@Blickers,
The post-Brexit pound – how sterling's fall affects the UK economy
Quote:
Bargain-hunting tourists are flocking to the UK to exploit the plunging pound but Britons are burning money on their summer holiday in Europe

The dramatic slide in sterling since the Brexit vote has given British holidaymakers enough pain already. But there was a further shock in store this week after some airports offered less than €1 to £1 at two major airports.

At Stansted and Luton, travellers found they could not even exchange £1 for €1, which at least prepared them for the financial squeeze at their destinations. Those holidaying in Europe are finding that meals, coffees, drinks and other items are typically at least 22% more expensive than a year ago.

There has, however, been a benefit for the British economy. On Thursday, official data showed that retail sales leapt 1.4% in July following a drop in June – apparently helped by an influx of big-spending overseas tourists from the likes of the US, China and Hong Kong.
[...]
However, Ryanair’s biggest increase in business has come from Americans and Chinese flying to Europe and then using its network to come to Britain and shop. “We are carrying 20% more Americans this summer, and have seen a 10% increase in the number of Chinese coming into places such as Rome and Berlin, then using Ryanair to get around Europe. It is absolutely linked to the weakness of sterling.”
[...]
The weak pound has added hundreds of pounds to the cost of many people’s summer holidays. According to M&S Bank, the typical cost of a one-week overseas summer holiday for a family of four, including flights, accommodation, meals and spending money, had risen by £429 compared to last year due to the fall in sterling.
[...]
“You are still getting a pint of lager for £1 in parts of Spain and Portugal, while you’ll struggle to find it anywhere under £2.50 in Britain,” said Jacobs at Ryanair. “When people like Nigel Farage say that Brexit will encourage Brits to holiday at home, he’s talking absolute nonsense. Since Brexit we’ve not seen any drop-off in business. If money is tight next year, people won’t stop going on holiday abroad – they will more likely drop down from a four-star hotel to a three-star.”
[...]
Northern Ireland, which voted to stay in the EU, has at least benefited from the post-Brexit plunge in the pound. At the Quays shopping centre in Newry, just four miles from the border with the Republic, the fall in the pound is a huge relief following several tough years after the Irish economy tanked. This week, a sizeable proportion of the vehicles in its car park belonged to bargain-hunting shoppers up from the south.


Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 20 Aug, 2016 12:22 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Another opinion in that paper
about that Builder wrote:
Crazy how you people let the media tell you what to think.


Brexit Armageddon was a terrifying vision – but it simply hasn’t happened
Quote:
[...]
Some caveats are in order. It is still early days. Hard data is scant. Survey evidence is still consistent with a slowdown in the economy in the second half of 2016. Brexit may be a slow burn, with the impact only becoming apparent in the months and years to come.
[...]
So instead of telling the public how hard life was going to be outside the EU, ministers and officials sought to reassure, to administer large doses of soothing balm, to insist that the UK could cope just fine on its own.
[...]
Project Everything’s OK has worked well so far. Again, this is understandable. There were millions who thought Project Fear was well over the top, which it was, or didn’t think life could become much tougher. The remain camp was ill-advised to rely so heavily on its warnings of economic Armageddon, when only two regions of the country – London and the south-east – had seen GDP per head rise above the level before the 2008-9 recession. After weighing up the pros and cons, plenty of voters didn’t think they were risking all that much.

As far as it is possible to tell, there was a collective sharp intake of breath in the aftermath of the vote, but then consumers carried on regardless. The latest monthly health-check of household sentiment found a sharp drop in optimism in July followed by a rapid recovery in August. John Lewis and Next – two bellwethers of activity in the high street – say trading has not been affected by Brexit.

This doesn’t mean everything is fine. Britain has deep structural economic problems that would have to be addressed inside or outside the EU. Investment has been weak, productivity has flatlined since the recession, earnings growth is running at half its 4-5% pre-financial crisis level and, except in times of war, the balance of payments deficit has never been higher. ...

But in other respects, Brexit has been a help. It has forced the government to take a long, hard look at the British economy – something that would not have happened without the shock administered by the referendum. It’s brought home the fact that most of Britain feels disconnected from the economic story peddled by successive governments.

For decades, there’s been a tendency for businesses to meet rising demand by employing cheap labour rather than by investing in modern equipment. Large chunks of the economy are characterised by low skills, low wages, and low productivity. As the Resolution Foundation noted this week, companies that rely on the ability to import low-cost employees from the EU are going to have to rethink their business models. This is not necessarily a bad thing. ...

The government has responded to Brexit by soft-pedalling on austerity, by contemplating spending more on infrastructure and by committing itself to an industrial strategy. A degree of scepticism is warranted here. The referendum has made change possible: it doesn’t guarantee it will happen. It remains to be seen how many new roads and railways get built, or whether the industrial strategy amounts to anything more than a new name for Whitehall’s business department.
... ... ...
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Sat 20 Aug, 2016 12:23 am
YouGov has asked if EU should give Great Britian a more generous deal or not.
For a more generoous deal
Denmark 50 %
Sweden 43%
Germany 31%
Finland 28%
France 26%
Against were 54% in Germany and France
52% in Finland
40% in Sweden
35% in Denmark
The resurlt does not suprise me.
 

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