Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

@saab,

saab wrote:

The European Economical Community was good
The idea of EU and the hope of some for a United States of Europe is a dangerous thing.

Already in 1946, Winstoon Churchill called for the creation of a United States of Europe in his famous Zürich speech.

And a British view about the Treaty of Rome

Quote:

In 1957 the Treaty of Rome establishing the European Economic Community (EEC) was signed by ‘The Original Six’. The formation of the EEC was the first step toward the common market and had two main goals: firstly, to transform trade, industry and manufacturing in the Community; secondly, to take a step closer to a unified Europe.

NB: "secondly, to take a step closer to a unified Europe", and the source is: the UK Parliament!

saab wrote:

I hope for England that in the future the Brexit will not be a desaster, but lead
to a better EU and a UK which for its people turns out to be a good thing.

I hope that the UK will be what it has been before the resolution: England and Scotland still part of it.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Churchill said:
We must build a kind of United States of Europe
and
he as so many others probably would turn in his grave if he knew what his dream has turned into.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln4SRnt4VE0

1 Reply

@saab,

saab wrote:

Churchill said:
We must build a kind of United States of Europe
and
he as so many others probably would turn in his grave if he knew what his dream has turned into.

Your view on Churchill's speech isn't surprising at all, because it's in line with your anti-Eu views.

Ted Heath (PM from 1970 to 1974, Leader of the Conservative Party from 1965 to 1975) responded to similar ideas by Euro-sceptics newspaper in the UK and especially by UKIP (UKIP courted controversy by depicting Churchill next to the words: "Say No to European Union") already in 1996: A Euro-sceptic? Churchill? Never

Quote:

[...]
As leader of the opposition in the Commons in 1950, he indicated that both the Liberals and the Conservatives were “prepared to consider, and if convinced to accept, the abrogation of national sovereignty, provided that we are satisfied with the conditions and the safeguards”. It is impossible to imagine a Tory leader saying this today.
[...]
Conservative eurosceptics may find it hard to accept, but Churchill would never have joined their ranks. Instead, his broadly pro-European stance was adopted by Conservative leaders from Macmillan to Major. Indeed, in his current quandary about how to negotiate the terms of Britain’s membership, David Cameron would do well to return to Churchill’s words for inspiration. As Churchill said in 1957:

We genuinely wish to join a European free trade area – and if our continental friends wish to reach agreement, I am quite sure a way can be found and that reasonable adjustments can be made to meet the essential interests of all.

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Churchill was a true European, perhaps Britain's greatest. He and Jean Monnet proposed a merger of the UK and France in 1940. You can't "abrogate" sovereignty more thoroughly than that. On 14 June 1940, Robert Vansittart (UK), Desmond Morton (UK), Jean Monnet (France) approved a draft "Declaration of Union" which was approved by the British War Cabinet the same day. It stated that...

"France and Great Britain shall no longer be two nations, but one Franco-British Union. The constitution of the Union will provide for joint organs of defence, foreign, financial and economic policies. Every citizen of France will enjoy immediately citizenship of Great Britain, every British subject will become a citizen of France."

It was torpedoed by the French cabinet in spite of the suppport of the Prime Minister, Jean Reynaud.

Again in 1956, at the time of Suez, French Prime Minister Guy Mollet proposed a union between the United Kingdom and the French Union with Elizabeth II as head of state and a common citizenship. As an alternative, Mollet proposed that France join the Commonwealth. British Prime Minister Anthony Eden rejected both proposals and France went on to join the Treaty of Rome, which established the European Economic Community.

Such missed opportunities. It makes me want to weep.

It was torpedoed

1 Reply

@Tes yeux noirs,

According to Andrea Leadsom, Britain will continue trading tariff-free with Europe after Brexit.

Quote:

The size of our economy means we will be the key trading partner for the EU, and we have also have 43 years aligning our goods and services. We start with zero tariffs. All we actually need to do is continue as before.

Once we leave the EU we will be back in control of immigration. People going on holiday or travelling on business or to collaborate on science will be able to do that but the right to reside and the right to work here will be under work permits.

Source

Canada has access to the single market for some of its goods, but not financial services.
Norway has single market access but abides by freedom of movement rules.
Switzerland has single market access for industries, but not for the banking sector, and accepts freedom of movement.

Perhaps the UK really will become the first non-member with all rights the want, but without contributing anything.
But perhaps, Leadsom isn't the next PM. (According to the Mirror and the Daily Express , one moderate Tory MP described arch-Thatcherite Mrs Leadsom as “Sarah Palin without the brains”.)

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@Walter Hinteler,

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John Redwood, a nutter if I ever saw one, heartily backs Leadsom who is widely seen as "Britain's Sarah Palin", not just by that un-named Tory MP.

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1 Reply

@bobsal u1553115,

More than 1,000 lawyers have signed a letter addressed to Prime Minister David Cameron saying the EU referendum result is merely “advisory” and not legally binding. Full letter in this report here

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@Walter Hinteler,

Hope it is taken seriously and helps. EU needs United Kingdom.

Someone in Europe has spoken - the door is closed. Hopefully it is just one voice and the majority are of other opinion.

1 Reply

@saab,

saab wrote:

Someone in Europe has spoken - the door is closed. Hopefully it is just one voice and the majority are of other opinion.

Actually, 17,410,742 voters wanted the door closed. Whatever their reasons have been, the didn't want the UK to be a member of the EU.

The majority (51.9%) voted "Leave" to this question:
"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

You are referring to the Brittish people - the result I already knew.
I am referring to your Merkel who said they cannot get back in. What if a new referendum would be different in five years?

2 Replies

@saab,

saab wrote:

I am referring to your Merkel who said they cannot get back in. What if a new referendum would be different in five years?

If you knew the result, why did you neglect it?

The voters of the UK in their majority wanted to leave the EU. Their decision.

I don't know if and when a new/different referendum can be done in the UK. And furthermore, if there really are constitutionally and legel questions already about this one - what are those about a second?

If a country wants to join the EU, there's a known procedure how to deal with it - whatever Merkel, Löfven, Rasmussen, or someone else says.

Besides said, Merkel never said so: she's the one who wants the UK to stay in the EU. (Which led to some major coalition crisis ... and a quasi start to the pre-election campaign.)
Merkel said verbatim: " "Die Entscheidung ist aus meiner Sicht gefallen." (In my view, the decision has been made)

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Merkel hält Brexit für unumkehrbar
Merkel thinks Brexit is irreversible

I think that sounds a bit harder than a decision has been made

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@saab,

saab wrote:

Merkel hält Brexit für unumkehrbar
Merkel thinks Brexit is irreversible

I think that sounds a bit harder than a decision has been made

Might be so. But that's exactly the result of the referendum, the majority opinion of UK-voters, and the UK-government's position.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

There is that tiny little word missing which would make Merkel less cold.
Sorry, it is irreversible.

1 Reply

@saab,

She has been just repeating what has been said during the last months and now in the UK: the vote to quit the EU "irreversible".

If it is: fine with me!
But I'm not at all an expert in the unwritten constitution of the United Kingdom. (Merkel neither, so she just took the 'official' opinion.)

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@Walter Hinteler,

Since Leadsom withdraws from the contest, it's just and only May as candidate for the Conservative leadership (and no 10)

A disaster not only for the EU-sceptic Tories but other Leave-campaigners as well.
Theresa May could be the new PM by the end of the week, according to several opinions from the Conservatives.

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@Walter Hinteler,

.... and two minutes ago, Graham Brady, chairman of the 1922 committee, said Theresa May will be formally confirmed as the new Tory leader.

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@Walter Hinteler,

There has to be a mechanism to correct the exit vote. Another vote with a higher turnout and a larger margin to stay????

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Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

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