Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

@saab,

I wasn't aware of all that. However, it is clear to even a distant observer like me, after the near catastropic events in Greece and Portugual (and the continuing dangers in Spain and Italy), that here are continuing economic stresses between the northern and southern tiers of EU states. It is also remarkable ( to me at least) that some discontent is also visible in France as well, though there I suspect some of the issues involved have a large domestic fraction.

I truly hope for the best with the EU. Its ascent certainly has been a brilliant success for the past four decades, and I fear there would be no winners if it unravels.

That said, the maintanance of political and economic unity in a continent as large, diverse and embracing as many long historical traditions as Europe is no simple thing. No one should be surprised if a little change and restructuring is needed along the way. The central lesson of human history is that nothing lasts forever. History is a story of continuous creation, decay, occasional destruction and recreation. There is no nirvanah and there are no permanent solutions to things involving human beings.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Just before Brexit the Germans content with EU was below 52% and afterwards it was 52%.
It has nothing to do with a lower % - it has to do with more for EU ater GB left.

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@georgeob1,

What is the brilliant succes for the past four decades?
EU is 23 years old.
Even if some politicians maintain that thanks to EU we have no wars it is thanks to NATO.
There has been wars:
The Yugoslav Wars were ethnic conflicts fought from 1991 to 2001 inside the territory of the former Yugoslavia.
We have Ireland which also was in a very serious conflict.
Spain and the Basques
Cyprus 1974 - but still
My friends close enough to even discuss EU are in no way against foreigners,
in no way nationalistic or any other negative adjective in that direction.
Non of them like EU. It varies what they think. They are sceptical to very sceptical, they dislike EU, they think it is undemocratic, we are ruled by two or three people and hopeully it will disappear. Juncker should step down as president and Merkel should shut up.
This includes Swedes, Danes and Germans.
Part of Denmark - that is Greenland and the Faeroe Islands are not part of EU.
Which shows a country can be devided EU and not EU.

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@saab,

saab wrote:

Just before Brexit the Germans content with EU was below 52% and afterwards it was 52%.

That wasn't questioned.
The question was: Die EU-Mitgliedschaft hat für Deutschland ... Vorteile ... Nachteile ... gleichviel Vorteile/Nachteilel (The EU.memrship has advantages/diadvantages for Germany or both are equal) The result was 52% [+13%] / 11% [-10%] /36% [-1%]

It wasn't questioned how content Germans are with the EU. (link to poll results)

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@Walter Hinteler,

It still sounds strange to me that there are more after GB left.
Nach der Brexit-Entscheidung der Briten ist erstmals eine Mehrheit der Deutschen der Meinung, dass die EU-Mitgliedschaft eher Vorteile bringt.

After the Brexit it is the first time a majority of the Germans are of the opinion that a membership in EU is beneficial.

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@saab,

Well, some see the disadvantages only now.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Of course there are both pro and contra.

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@saab,

saab wrote:

They are sceptical to very sceptical, they dislike EU, they think it is undemocratic, we are ruled by two or three people and hopeully it will disappear. Juncker should step down as president and Merkel should shut up.
This includes Swedes, Danes and Germans.

Perhaps, you and your friends don't know a lot of the EU?
The European commission, a hybrid of a civil service and a government, can be bureaucratic, like any other government anywhere else. The commissioners are not directly by the people but chosen by each of the 28 governments which in turn are elected. (Very similar with our government or that of the USA or of ....)
The European parliament is elected directly by voters.
If people don't vote, it's more than unfair to call this undemocratic.

Junker was elected by the Council and EU-parliament agreed with it.

Merkle is spokesperson of our elected member of the council. Germany has 29 votes there, as have France, Italy, and the United Kingdom.Why do you single out one country? What are your reasons that we should by silent?
To be honest: such doesn't sound very democratic!

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Quote:

A survey conducted for The Independent by pollsters ORB forced voters to choose between keeping single market access and ending freedom of movement – as Britain’s negotiators will likely to be asked to do in the coming months.

48 per cent of voters favoured keeping single market access, compared to 37 per cent who said capping immigration from Europe was more important.
[...]
Though Remain voters backed prioritising single market access by an overwhelming 76 per cent to 12 per cent, just one in five Leave voters said the single market was more important.

67 per cent of those who voted for Britain to quit the bloc last month were adamant that EU immigration needed to be reduced whatever the consequences for single market access.

Source

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@Walter Hinteler,

Of my Danish relatives and friends eight have worked for EU in Brussels.
So just here some discussions have taken place.
Reading Danish papers on daily basis I get a rather good impression of what some Danes think.
Swedish papers hardly any more mention Merkel and when you read the papers you get a feeling of EU is further away than USA. The Swedes feel much closer to GB and USA than to EU as a rule.
I am surprised that my German friends are so sceptical to EU. Afterall they have Merkel from Germany who gives the impression to run Europe, they have Martin Schultz and Juncker, who is not German but gives that impresseion.

It is not just an election which makes a country a democratic one. It is how the elected handle laws and how they behave.
Take the Euro. Which percentage of a population was against it? And still got it.

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Just to clarify:

saab wrote:

Part of Denmark - that is Greenland and the Faeroe Islands are not part of EU.
Which shows a country can be devided EU and not EU.

The Faroe Islands and Greenland are two overseas constituent countries of the Danish Realm ("Rigsfællesskabet") - Denmark is the third.

There relation with the EU is different, as it that of for instance
- British Overseas Territories,
- French overseas territories,
- Dutch overseas territories,
- the German Büdingen and Heligoland,
- the British Crown depencies,
... ... ... [more information at the links below]

Quote:

Several European Union member states have special territories which, for historical, geographical, or political reasons, enjoy special status within or outside the European Union. These statuses have a wide range of derogation from EU policies. Most of the territories which are outside the EU nonetheless have a special relationship with the EU.

Source

EU relations with its associated Overseas Territories and Countries

OCT - EU relations in detail

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@saab,

saab wrote:

Juncker, who is not German but gives that impresseion.

German is an official language in Luxembourg.
Luxembourg is the hub of the Greater Region of Luxembourg, comprising the Saarland, Lorraine, the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, Rhineland-Palatinate and Wallonia as well as Belgium’s French- and German-speaking communities.
The University of Luxembourg, which was established as recently as 2003, forms the University of the Greater Region network along with five other universities in Germany, France and Belgium.
[And in history, a couple of German emperors and kings belonged to the House of Luxembourg, too]

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@Walter Hinteler,

I am not one bit interested in facts that I already know like German is an official language etc.
Juncker behaves as if he comes from a not only bigger but also greater country than Luxembourg.
It does not help to always refer to all kinds of laws and orders within EU to convince how great it is.
If people have a feeling of EU is not what they want it to be - you cannot convince them with facts only by taking their feelings seriously. So far that has not really happened within EU.
If EU had come down to earth now and then, Brexit probably would not have happened, the right and left wing extremists would not have existed in such a number.
Pro EU people come up with facts or talk as if things are facts. Anti EU people talk about feelings and the feeling of something is wrong.
Paragraph number so and so is not going to help against a feeling of insecurity.

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@saab,

saab wrote:

It does not help to always refer to all kinds of laws and orders within EU to convince how great it is.

Certainly not! And I didn't intend to do - just wanted to correct some of your feelings in regard of how things really are. (Here: Danish Realm and the relations of the EU towards overseas counties and other territories, how it is voted in the Council etc)

Standing up to long-held beliefs and disregarding the actual facts certainly even increases a feeling of insecurity.

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Quote:

The Government has rejected a call for a second referendum on European Union membership in a petition that was signed by more than 4.1 million people following the Brexit vote.

It was the most-signed Government petition since the process was introduced in 2011.

Source

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@Walter Hinteler,

That does not suprise me one bit.
At any divorse, break up, fights between neighbours , you name it - there usually is some form of negotiation. A try to get people to stay together, stop fights, get a fair end.
But EU no. It behaves like a child - I do not want to play with you, when you do not do as I tell you.
When someone walks out and slams the door yelling at you and that person, kid, teen ager or partner comes back and says "I am sorry - it was a mistake" you would as a rule accept it.
But EU oh no.
UK out - Turkey negotiations starts again and let us punish Spain and Portugal for how they handle money.

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@saab,

saab wrote:

But EU no. It behaves like a child - I do not want to play with you, when you do not do as I tell you.
When someone walks out and slams the door yelling at you and that person, kid, teen ager or partner comes back and says "I am sorry - it was a mistake" you would as a rule accept it.

I really don't get your opinion: they want to cancel there membership with the EU. they don't just "walk out".

It's just and only how the UK deals and will deal with the result the referundum.
From the above quoted article (which didn't surprise you, me neither):

Quote:

The Government’s decision will come as a blow to those who hoped to find a parliamentary means of stopping Britain’s withdrawal from the bloc.

However, calls for a second referendum on the terms of Britain’s departure from the EU are gathering pace. Four out of 10 people would like to see a second referendum before Britain leaves the EU, according to an opinion poll for The Independent.

The survey of 2,000 people by ORB found that 40 per cent agree that there should be a referendum on the exit deal that the Government negotiates, and that the UK should seek to Remain in the EU if the public rejects the terms. ...

Jeremy Hunt, the Health Secretary, is among a number of MPs backing a referendum on the exit terms. Lawyers have also said MPs must vote to repeal the 1972 European Communities Act, under which the UK joined the EU.

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@Walter Hinteler,

If France had voted out - which probably never will happen - don´t you think that EU would have crawled on their bare knees begging France to stay?
With UK - no.

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@saab,

If WWII hadn't happened, do you think that we've got an EU?

There are a lot more speculative questions, but this thread, I think, is about why the "Brits want out of the EU", the 'Brexit referendum, how the new British PM will handle article 50, ... (and the UK the constitutional crisis).

But I do think that France might leave the EU - if Le Pen becomes president.
If the EU han't become a right-wing institution by then (including the EU-parliament) as well, I think, the procedure will be the same as now: following the legal progress.

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@Walter Hinteler,

I reaklly do not even want to speculate if WWII ha<d not happened.
The European Economical Community was good
The idea of EU and the hope of some for a United States of Europe is a dangerous thing. One president over Europe with its history of rulers and dictatores.
I hope for England that in the future the Brexit will not be a desaster, but lead
to a better EU and a UK which for its people turns out to be a good thing.

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Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

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