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Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Wed 27 Mar, 2019 01:54 pm
@tsarstepan,
tsarstepan wrote:
How is this supposed to be an incentive?
It's her/a bid to get the Tories behind the deal.

Quoting from a column by Polly Toynbee on Theresa May’s decision to announce that she will resign before the next phase of the Brexit talks.
Quote:
Theresa May will leave office in an “orderly handover” whenever an EU withdrawal deal is done. No one is weeping. The oddity is: we may yet come to miss her, though she has been the worst prime minister of our political lifetimes – bar none. Yet there was one great good purpose in her premiership: by occupying the space, however vacuously, she kept out the barbarian hordes of Brexiteers barging one another out of the way to seize her throne.

Now she has surrendered that one useful role, leaving the country to the untender mercies of those competing in Europhobia for the votes of some 120,000 dwindling Tory party members. To use her deathless phrase, nothing will be changed by her departure. Parliament will be as gridlocked as ever, the combat deadlier with an avowed Brextremist at the helm.
Source
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Wed 27 Mar, 2019 02:30 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
In the Commons MPs are now debating the statutory instrument changing the date of Brexit as set out in the EU Withdrawal Act. Opening the debate, Robin Walker, a Brexit minister, said the agreement with the EU at the summit last week meant the date of Brexit in international law had already been moved - to 22 May if the withdrawal agreement passes this week, or to 12 April otherwise. But the date also needs to be changed in the EU Withdrawal Act, which repeals the European Communities Act 1972. Walker said if the EU Withdrawal Act were not amended, there would be legal confusion.

The statutory instrument needs to be passed by both the Commons and the Lords. In the Lords peers passed it earlier today, without a division, but some Brexiter peers did complain about the need for a delay.
/From the Guardian's blog)
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Wed 27 Mar, 2019 11:28 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
https://i.imgur.com/2xhhBmp.jpg

Quote:
[...]
The prime minister had hoped to remain in No 10 after exit day, and build a legacy that extended beyond the humiliations of the Brexit talks to domestic policy.

But if the withdrawal agreement is passed and Britain leaves the EU in eight weeks’ time, she could now be gone before the summer – after just three years in the top job.

Three ministers resigned on Monday to back an amendment tabled by a cross-bench group of MPs led by the Tory former minister Oliver Letwin to test the backing for alternatives to the prime minister’s deal.

On Wednesday night, Letwin said it was “a great matter of disappointment” that no majority had emerged for any of the eight options debated that day. He said another set of votes would be held on Monday – but he hoped that May’s deal would be accepted before then.

The closest result was on a commitment for the government to negotiate a “permanent and comprehensive UK-wide customs union with the EU” in any Brexit deal. Put forward by the pro-EU Tory veteran Ken Clarke and others, it was voted down by 272 votes to 264.

The only other relatively close vote was on a plan drawn up by the Labour MPs Peter Kyle and Phil Wilson, and tabled by the former foreign secretary Margaret Beckett, to require a referendum to confirm any Brexit deal. This was lost by 268 votes to 295.

Backers of a referendum said the result showed they were gaining ground. Labour’s deputy leader Tom Watson said: “When this parliament has finally made a decision on what Brexit means, I am hopeful that a majority will emerge for any final proposal to be put to a vote, not only by MPs, but also by the people.”

However, 27 Labour MPs defied a three-line whip to vote against a referendum, with one shadow minister, Melanie Onn, resigning in order to do so and three shadow cabinet members abstaining.

May was forced to give her MPs a free vote – and instructed her cabinet to abstain – rather than suffer a string of resignations from ministers keen to signal their support for alternatives.

The government had earlier tried and failed to stop the indicative vote process happening altogether, by whipping MPs to reject the business motion kicking off the debate.

The Brexit secretary, Steve Barclay, said: “The results of the process this House has gone through today strengthens our view that the deal the government has negotiated is the best option.”

Ministers now hope to make a third attempt to ram May’s deal through the House of Commons on Friday – though their prospects of success were thrown into doubt after the DUP said its 10 MPs would vote against it.

The prime minister had been under intense pressure to set out a timetable for her departure, as the leave-supporting wing of her party continued to resist supporting her deal, which was defeated by a majority of 149 earlier this month.
... ... ...
The Guardian
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 28 Mar, 2019 12:54 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The House of Commons does want a Brexit, but none that is on offer: a customs union emerged as the most popular option (or least unpopular, if your glass is half-empty) at 272 noes, 264 ayes; a fresh referendum ran second to that, at 268 in favour, 295 against.
Each got more ayes than Theresa May’s deal has achieved. A motion to leave the EU without a deal on 12 April lost by 160 votes to 400.

If the PM really will resign, who would replace May?

I hope, someone's glass bowl works better than mine.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Thu 28 Mar, 2019 01:31 am
@Walter Hinteler,
My guess is, what will happen is what always happens when people can't agree about a deal.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Thu 28 Mar, 2019 02:53 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/kp37wc4.png
A chart from Simon Usherwood from UK in a Changing Europe, an academic network, explaining the implications of the eight amendments for the EU.

B (Baron) No Deal Brexit
For: 160 Against: 400


D (Boles) Common Market 2.0
For: 188 Against: 283


H (Eustice) Norway Option
For: 65 Against: 377


J (Clarke) Customs Union
For: 264 Against: 272


K (Corbyn) Labor's Brexit Plan
For: 237 Against: 307


L (Cherry) Stay in EU
For: 184 Against: 293


M (Beckett) Require a new public referendum to approve whatever plan is adopted
For: 268 Against: 295


O (Fysh) Plan B
For: 139 Against: 422


I believe I matched up the vote results with the correct proposals. Apologies if I screwed it up.

While all of the proposals were voted down, the options that I colored green got at least 260 yes votes and fewer than 300 no votes.

Since they seem palatable to the EU according to the chart that you posted, perhaps the options that I colored green are the way forward.

At any rate, good luck and best wishes to everyone in finding their way out of this mess with the least amount of pain.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Thu 28 Mar, 2019 03:03 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
a customs union emerged as the most popular option (or least unpopular, if your glass is half-empty) at 272 noes, 264 ayes; a fresh referendum ran second to that, at 268 in favour, 295 against.

My advice would be to move forward on those two options. According to the chart that you posted, the EU doesn't seem to have any objections to the Customs Union option.

Although all through this process it has seemed to me like all of the politicians (or at least most of them) have been making foolish and damaging choices. So who knows what they will really do.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 28 Mar, 2019 04:56 am
More than 20 years of peace in Northern Ireland, and now the Brexit is supposed to endanger all that.
Who would want to bomb again? The answer is frightening: those who never stop.

Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 28 Mar, 2019 05:00 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Although all through this process it has seemed to me like all of the politicians (or at least most of them) have been making foolish and damaging choices. So who knows what they will really do.
Jacob Rees-Mogg’s position on Theresa May’s Brexit deal is a good example.
For weeks, as chair of the European Research Group, which represents Tory Brexiters pushing for a harder Brexit, he led opposition to it.

Yesterday, in an article in the Daily Mail, he apologised to his supporters for changing his mind.
I apologise for changing my mind. Theresa May’s deal is a bad one, it does not deliver on the promises made in the Tory party manifesto and its negotiation was a failure of statesmanship ...
Yet, I am now willing to support it if the Democratic Unionist party does, and by doing so will be accused of infirmity of purpose by some and treachery by others.

Then, last night in the Commons, he said he would be happy to support May’s deal, as long as the DUP abstained or voted in favour.
And this morning he described himself as being in favour of the deal.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 28 Mar, 2019 05:09 am
@oralloy,
Regarding the Customs Union: we know virtually nothing about the customs union other than that there would need at a minimum to be a customs union.

Reminder: EU law does not allow non-EU members to have a formal say or veto in its trade talks.
Quote:
The EU customs union includes the 28 EU member states as well as Monaco.

The EU also has customs union arrangements with non-EU members: Turkey, Andorra and San Marino.

But under (the EU's) customs union rules, members cannot negotiate their own independent trade deals with countries from the rest of the world.

Instead, free trade deals (ie agreements that reduce or eliminate tariffs between countries) can only be negotiated by the EU as a whole.

As a result, Theresa May's government has ruled out remaining in the customs union after Brexit, arguing it would prevent the UK from setting its own trade policy.
BBC
oralloy
 
  -2  
Thu 28 Mar, 2019 05:30 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
As a result, Theresa May's government has ruled out remaining in the customs union after Brexit, arguing it would prevent the UK from setting its own trade policy.

If they leave the EU and leave the common market and leave the customs union, how would that be any different from a no-deal Brexit?

At any rate, given the results of the vote, she may want to rethink her position.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Thu 28 Mar, 2019 05:31 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
More than 20 years of peace in Northern Ireland, and now the Brexit is supposed to endanger all that.
Who would want to bomb again? The answer is frightening: those who never stop.

That's why I thought the Norway Option might be nice. If they stay in the Common Market then the Northern Ireland border doesn't become a problem.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 28 Mar, 2019 08:25 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
More than 20 years of peace in Northern Ireland, and now the Brexit is supposed to endanger all that.
Who would want to bomb again? The answer is frightening: those who never stop.

That's why I thought the Norway Option might be nice. If they stay in the Common Market then the Northern Ireland border doesn't become a problem.
1.) EFTA would have to accept the UK,
2.) Free movement is something the UK explicitly doesn't want,
3.) The exciting and future laws of the EU would aplly without the UK being able to have a word with it.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 28 Mar, 2019 08:30 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The situation - this afternoon, as of now - is that the government hopes to hold another vote on Theresa May’s Brexit deal on Friday after announcing a debate on Brexit for that day, even as it emerged that no new talks were scheduled with the DUP.
A government spokesperson said that the motion will be will be designed to ensure that the UK can still get an article 50 extension until 22 May, in line with the conditions set by the EU at last week’s summit.

And Adam Marshall, the director general of the British Chambers of Commerce, has said that businesses want MPs to stop "chasing rainbows" and instead pass a Brexit deal.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 28 Mar, 2019 09:24 am
@Walter Hinteler,
https://i.imgur.com/DC5v2MI.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/DrtuF47.jpg

Joe Marshall is a researcher from the Institute for Government
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 28 Mar, 2019 10:19 am
@Walter Hinteler,
As I'd thought, the Speaker said he won't allow repeat vote on the same Brexit deal motion just because support for it has increased.
Bercow also said he accepted the argument that MPs should be protected from having to repeatedly make difficult voting decisions.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 28 Mar, 2019 10:23 am
@Walter Hinteler,
And the EU moves into crisis mode as it plans for no-deal Brexit

Quote:
The EU has moved into full crisis mode, with officials now setting the terms the UK will have to meet for Brussels to open talks on avoiding an economic meltdown in the weeks after a no-deal Brexit.

In anticipation of a no-deal outcome on 12 April after MPs voted down eight Brexit options on Wednesday, and the likely rejection of the withdrawal agreement on Friday, EU ambassadors on Thursday morning opened discussions on the terms to be set for the bloc to return to the negotiating table.

The EU’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, told the diplomats of his heightened concern during the meeting, and the urgent need to war-game the bloc’s response to it. The EU is to step up its “full-on crisis” preparations, according to a diplomatic note.

It was agreed among the member states that for there to be any talks after the UK has crashed out, the bloc’s 27 capitals will expect Downing Street to agree to signal by 18 April that it will pay the £39bn Brexit bill despite the failure of the Commons to ratify the withdrawal agreement.

The terms of the Irish backstop, keeping Northern Ireland in large parts of single market legislation and the EU’s customs territory in order to protect the Good Friday agreement, would remain as the bloc’s solution for avoiding a hard border on the island of Ireland.
... ... ...
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 28 Mar, 2019 10:28 am
@Walter Hinteler,
To clarify:
if the WA does not pass tomorrow, a long article 50 extension would still be an option, provided the UK takes part in the European elections.

If the UK were to pass the deal after tomorrow, but before 12 April (the last date for deciding that the UK will participate in the European elections), it is conceivable that the EU could revive the 22 May deadline, but that is not certain.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 28 Mar, 2019 11:20 am
@Walter Hinteler,
In the Commons John Bercow, the Speaker, says that he will allow tomorrow’s Brexit motion. It is not the same, or substantially the same, as a previous one, he says.

He says the motion for debate tomorrow will just cover the withdrawal agreement (WA). It will not cover the WA and the political declaration (PD), like the previous meaningful votes, he says.

He says he is glad the government has accepted his ruling that the MPs should not be asked to vote on the same proposition twice.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 28 Mar, 2019 12:49 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
The UK was supposed to be leaving the EU tomorrow.
Tom McTague, UK political correspondent for Politico, has written a long, very interesting explainer on the Brexit and why it’s all gone to s***👇

How the UK lost Brexit battle
Quote:
“We will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave" — The official Brexit campaign in 2016

Quote:
May’s opponents blame the current crisis on her decision to pursue one interpretation of Brexit.

Quote:
“The British government should have offered some
thing very, very quickly" — High-ranking European official

Quote:
“We are not leaving the European Union only to give up control of immigration all over again" — Theresa May in 2016

Quote:
That Ireland felt the need to reiterate its commitment is illustrative of how the country’s leaders saw Brexit as an existential threat.

Quote:
"There was always a worry that the Irish were the Brits’ Trojan Horse" — Senior EU official

Quote:
“[Barnier is] a politician who is reassuring for France, but is identifiable in Germany" — Europe adviser in major EU government

Quote:
“The EU, while strategically myopic, is formidably good at process against negotiating opponents" — Ivan Rogers, former British ambassador to the EU

Quote:
“Where we are now has been obvious for a long time" — Senior official at No. 10 Downing Street

Quote:
"We just could not believe the British had accepted the text" — Senior EU official

Quote:
The first significant blurring of Theresa May’s red lines came in December 2017, with her acceptance of the backstop.

Quote:
The first significant blurring of Theresa May’s red lines came in December 2017, with her acceptance of the backstop.

Quote:
For many around May, that a crash would come had been obvious for months. As far back as July 2018, senior figures inside No. 10 Downing Street had warned that her deal, as it was shaping up, was unsustainable. There was just no way a majority in parliament could be assembled for the Brexit the EU was offering.

In truth, the trains had been set in motion far earlier — the collision was the culmination of decisions taken by both sides within the hours, weeks and months that followed the referendum. The EU’s determination not to cut London a special deal; Cameron’s decision to walk away; May’s sweeping promise not to raise a border in Ireland, while at the same time drawing incompatible red lines — something had to give, and it would not be Brussels.

The result, some of the most senior figures in Brussels and London admit, is an outcome in which the negotiations will have fallen short of their limited ambitions — even if a deal is eventually forced through a recalcitrant House of Commons in the coming days or weeks.

The contentious Irish backstop — the root cause of the crisis — has become so toxic for the largest party in Northern Ireland, the DUP, that it risks permanently undermining power-sharing until it is removed and replaced.

Throughout the negotiations, the divisions in Northern Ireland have deepened, and the peace process has been damaged — as the Commission predicted in February 2017.

Most important, few of the major questions created by Britain’s decision to leave the EU have been answered. “The big loss is that they have not settled the question for the future,” one senior official close to Barnier admitted.

Should the EU have resisted the temptation to press home its overwhelming advantage? Should it have allowed the U.K. some cherry-picking? Should it have made Dublin share some of the costs of Brexit by imposing a border with Northern Ireland instead of the backstop?

Many in the U.K. might think so, but few in Brussels, Dublin or any other European capital would agree. “History will judge,” said the senior official.
 

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