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Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Tue 15 Jan, 2019 02:20 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I'd wanted to post this earlier, but couldn't due to A2K's "Flood Prevention".


Here is the full text [via live blog of The Guardian] of Theresa May’s statement to MPs about what will happen next. She said:

Mr Speaker, the House has spoken and the Government will listen.

It is clear that the House does not support this deal. But tonight’s vote tells us nothing about what it does support. Nothing about how - or even if - it intends to honour the decision the British people took in a referendum parliament decided to hold.

People, particularly EU citizens who have made their home here and UK citizens living in the EU, deserve clarity on these questions as soon as possible. Those whose jobs rely on our trade with the EU need that clarity. So with your permission Mr Speaker I would like to set out briefly how the government intends to proceed.

First, we need to confirm whether this government still enjoys the confidence of the House. I believe that it does, but given the scale and importance of tonight’s vote it is right that others have the chance to test that question if they wish to do so. I can therefore confirm that if the official opposition table a confidence motion this evening in the form required by the Fixed-term Parliaments Act, the government will make time to debate that motion tomorrow. And if, as happened before Christmas, the official opposition decline to do so, we will – on this occasion - consider making time tomorrow to debate any motion in the form required from the other opposition parties, should they put one forward.

Second, if the House confirms its confidence in this government I will then hold meetings with my colleagues, our confidence and supply partner the DUP and senior parliamentarians from across the House to identify what would be required to secure the backing of the House. The government will approach these meetings in a constructive spirit, but given the urgent need to make progress, we must focus on ideas that are genuinely negotiable and have sufficient support in this House.

Third, if these meetings yield such ideas, the government will then explore them with the European Union.

Mr Speaker I want to end by offering two reassurances.

The first is to those who fear that the government’s strategy is to run down the clock to 29th March. That is not our strategy. I have always believed that the best way forward is to leave in an orderly way with a good deal and have devoted much of the last two years negotiating such a deal. As you confirmed Mr Speaker, the amendment to the business motion tabled last week by [Dominic Grieve] is not legally binding, but the government respects the will of the House. We will therefore make a statement about the way forward and table an amendable motion by Monday.

The second reassurance is to the British people, who voted to leave the European Union in the referendum two and a half years ago. I became prime minister immediately after that referendum. I believe it is my duty to deliver on their instruction and I intend to do so.

Mr Speaker every day that passes without this issue being resolved means more uncertainty, more bitterness and more rancour. The government has heard what the House has said tonight, but I ask members on all sides of the House to listen to the British people, who want this issue settled, and to work with the government to do just that.



And the DUP has confirmed that it will vote for the government in the no confidence motion.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Tue 15 Jan, 2019 02:30 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
As already mentioned above, tonight’s defeat is the biggest government defeat in the democratic era.
Quote:
https://i.imgur.com/dm3ql0C.jpg
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Tue 15 Jan, 2019 02:44 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
An opinion, translated from spiegel-online

Quote:
Collision with reality
The Brexit deal failed in the British Parliament. The EU should now concentrate on cushioning the consequences of a withdrawal without an agreement. Because an agreement with the British is hardly imaginable at the moment.

A comment by Markus Becker

There is one thing that Theresa May has to let go of: she masters it to perfection: keeping her posture. No matter how much she fails, no matter how brutally she is attacked by her opponents in parliament, the British Prime Minister never seems to lose her temper. Not even at the moment of her probably worst defeat, the crushing rejection of the EU withdrawal treaty in the House of Commons (LINK).

One could almost feel sorry for her. But only almost. May made a conscious and fatal decision right at the beginning of the Brexit process: To deceive the British instead of pouring them pure wine.

But May could have done this much easier than other politicians. While a Nigel Farage or a Boris Johnson agitated for the EU withdrawal with half-truths and bare lies, May was actually against Brexit. After the referendum, she could have clearly told voters what her election meant - hard choices.

May played the Brexiteers game

She could have explained that a continued close relationship with the EU would mean accepting many rules and decisions from Brussels in the future, without being able to have a say in their negotiation. Or, if Britain opts for a greater degree of freedom, this would result in economic disadvantages. And she could have sent a polithasarist like Johnson to where he belongs: to the desert.

Instead, she has made Johnson the foreign minister and adopted his strategy of convincing the people to somehow have everything: full control over immigration, total freedom for new trade agreements with the whole world, plus the benefits of former EU membership. And of course there is no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, even if to this day nobody knows how this will happen if Britain leaves the EU customs union at the same time.

The opposition is not much better. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn early on said that only a Brexit deal that gives Britain exactly the same benefits as when it joined the EU was acceptable. This was so obviously impossible from the outset that it amounts to sheer sabotage of democracy. A clear vision for Britain's future outside the EU has been owed to Corbyn to this day.

Brussels concessions would not help either

Eventually, that was clear, there would be a collision with reality. This has now happened with May's defeat in Parliament - and it is above all her fault that this happened so late. Now there is hardly any time left to prevent a chaos brexit without an agreement. It would be possible to postpone the withdrawal date a little, but by a few weeks at the most. Otherwise there is the threat of a date collision with the European elections with partly bizarre, partly dangerous consequences for the rest of the EU.

But why should the EU do this to itself? At the moment there is nothing or nothing to suggest that Great Britain could suddenly come to its senses. Because the core problem remains: British politicians are still not prepared to accept the consequences of the Brexit decision, and therefore they cannot know what they actually want from the EU.

That is why it makes little sense to ask the rest of the EU to approach the government in London. On the one hand, it is unclear with which concession Brussels could increase the chances of reaching an agreement in London. On the other hand, it is questionable whether this would be possible at all.

EU should prepare for the worst

You shouldn't kid yourself: Some of the British MEPs are fundamentalists who follow the Brexit with quasi-religious fervour. No realistic form of leaving the EU will ever be enough for them; appeals to reason will hardly impress them. One might just as well try to convince followers of the biblical doctrine of creation of the theory of evolution by means of scientific essays.

Of course, politicians of this kind represent only a minority in the British House of Commons - but this minority is large enough to torpedo any decision. The majority of Brexit-sceptical MPs, on the other hand, cannot unite without risking the division of their own parties and the anger of voters incited by the Brexit press.

Britain may indeed first have to go through the catastrophe of a no deal exit in order to find its way back to itself. The tragedy would be that the colliery would not pay those elitist Brexiteers who pretend to be against the political elites - but the voters who were betrayed by them.

A no deal brexit would also be expensive for the rest of the EU. It would therefore be advisable for the 27 other EU states now to concentrate all their energy on dealing with the worst consequences of a no-deal-brexit with a series of individual agreements.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Tue 15 Jan, 2019 02:50 pm
I wish I understood this situation, better than I do. My impression has been that, though divided, British Public opinion remains in favor of leaving the EU. That, of course is something that could change or be upset by events ahead. As I understand it the UK Parliament is supreme and can itself undo the decision of the previous plebiscite. However, whether this is a political possibility, in the event of a Labor party victory in a new election, I don't know.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 15 Jan, 2019 03:31 pm
@georgeob1,
Ditto for me! Nothing of this kind has simple answers or results, but my understanding of Economics tells me there's more negatives than positives to a Brexit. There is no way to evaluate the cost of immigration to individual country's, but can't they continue to have laws to protect that aspect of the EU? The economic benefits would seem to outweigh the freedom of migration. If the US is any example, our country got stronger with immigrants coming to this country. We also need younger immigrants as our demographics shifts to the older population. https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/in-defense-of-immigrants-heres-why-america-needs-them-now-more-than-ever/. Japan is in the same pickle as the US. Unless we immigrate more people, there won't be enough workers to support the aging population.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Tue 15 Jan, 2019 04:02 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I'm not so sure about that. The UK remains in the WTO, and though its position in the European financial markets may be affected, the British have been very adaptive and successful in these markets for a long time. I also believe the EU is becoming a rather sclerotic Bureaucratic institution caught increasingly between its, so far very successful role in lifting European Economic activity , (initially in Western Europe, and more recently that of the former Soviet states of Eastern Europe), and recently arising questions relating to sovereignty on issues ranging from immigration to national budgets.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 15 Jan, 2019 04:14 pm
@georgeob1,
My understanding of Economics is that the more free trade treaties a country has, the more prosperous they are, because it ensures quality and price over protectionism. One of the arguments for an open border.
Quote:
Advocates of entirely open borders tend to advance two types of arguments. The first is economic. Opening all borders would make the world instantly richer. Some believe that it could double the world’s GDP. That is because workers become more productive as they move from a poor country to a rich one. They join a labour market with ample capital, efficient firms and a predictable legal system. If they are service workers, they will find richer and better-paying clients. By some estimates, more than two-thirds of a person’s overall wealth is determined by where they live and work.
The biggest problem I have with the positives in the economy is that this planet has finite raw materials, clean air and water, and the excessive waste that's produced by a bigger economy.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Tue 15 Jan, 2019 04:23 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I agree with you about the usual benefits of free trade. However, that's not the only variable operating here. The nations of the EU benefit as well from trade with the UK and also have an interest in preserving it. My impression ( and it's only that) is that the resentments that drove the Brexit vote in the UK plebiscite had more to do with governance than economics. The desire of people for independence is often very strong.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 15 Jan, 2019 05:33 pm
@georgeob1,
But that's what "free trade" means; all benefit (in college, the term we learned was "comparative advantage"). I agree with you that the desire for independence is very strong.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Tue 15 Jan, 2019 05:39 pm
the money markets are certainly bouncy

UK down
UK up

the latest 'expert' I heard said that the up is due to the expectation that May
will survive the no-confidence vote, as people want Corbyn even less than they want her to lead the way out of the EU

lots of chaos


__

in the meantime, more room for the new variant of Macedonia to join NATO and perhaps the EU
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 15 Jan, 2019 05:45 pm
@ehBeth,
Simply put, the money market swings for the UK is based on any change in the free trade policy. It also affects the stock market.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Tue 15 Jan, 2019 05:47 pm
@ehBeth,
That would be consistent to what appears likely to have been PM May's strategy in suggesting the vote to the Parliament.

A complex situation which I don't well understand.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 15 Jan, 2019 09:23 pm
@georgeob1,
You're not the only one! Economics is not science. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/12/13/economics-science-wang/. If you like, I can share what little knowledge I know. I studied Economics in college over 50 years ago.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 15 Jan, 2019 11:58 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
A complex situation which I don't well understand.
You need special skills to bring so many people with different political views and from your own against you. May has succeeded.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 16 Jan, 2019 12:44 am
@Walter Hinteler,
But I think, a softer, later Brexit, or even no Brexit at all, is slightly more likely. Later today, this might look different, though.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 16 Jan, 2019 01:23 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
May's government defeats no-confidence motion by 325 to 306 votes.

On Monday May wants to present a plan B to prevent a hard EU resignation after all, she wants to start talks with opposition leaders tonight on alternative Brexit plan
And those say that May must rule out a no-deal Brexit before talks can start.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 16 Jan, 2019 01:48 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

You need special skills to bring so many people with different political views and from your own against you. May has succeeded.


I agree. I am impressed by PM May's thoughtful endurance in a very difficult situation. She wasn't a supporter of Brexit in the original debate and plebiscite, however as PM she has faithfully supported the results of it. I suspect Jeremy Corbin may be one of her best assets now: the prospect of a Labor government didn't appear to have wide appeal.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 16 Jan, 2019 02:37 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
I suspect Jeremy Corbin may be one of her best assets now: the prospect of a Labor government didn't appear to have wide appeal.
The no-confidence motion was defeated by 325 to 306 votes.

Quote:
https://i.imgur.com/KOSUwQR.jpg

Source: The Guardian

It wasn't a motion about a new government - governments are in the UK are formed after general elections.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 16 Jan, 2019 02:39 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
May's spokesman said tonight he was not willing to rule out the possibility that Britain leaves the European Union without an exit deal.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 16 Jan, 2019 02:45 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

It wasn't a motion about a new government - governments are in the UK are formed after general elections.


I agree, however, as I understand it a no confidence vote would have led to a new election, which could possibly have resulted in a Labor victory. The data you provided indicates a party line vote. For good reasons or bad, I had assumed that May faces some resistance from within her own party. If, so it wasn't evident in the vote.
 

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