47
   

Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 17 Jan, 2019 01:49 am
@georgeob1,
The border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland is the only land border between the UK and the EU. When free movement and free trade between the EU and the UK ends there may need to be a return to a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. [And there's the border between Gibraltar and Spain, too.]


https://i.imgur.com/2F3jnc2.jpg
>Explore the Border< maps a sample of just some of the border incidents experienced during the Troubles, but also shows Google Street View images of each mapped crossing on the border. This allows to explore the border and highlights how a hard border would not only be difficult to implement but would be an ugly scar on a very beautiful country.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 17 Jan, 2019 06:20 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Hitachi has scrapped plans to build a nuclear power station in Wales, becoming the second firm in two months to abandon a major nuclear project and triggering “a full-blown crisis” for the UK energy’s strategy.
[...]
The decision is a serious blow to the government’s energy policy and hopes of attracting major investments post-Brexit.
... ... ...
The Guardian
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 17 Jan, 2019 09:26 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The Latest on Brexit:
- the UK has put military reservists on standby for permanent service in the event the country leaves the European Union without a divorce agreement to smooth the way,
- Germany's Bundestag (parliament) has approved legislation regulating a putative transition period following Britain's departure from the European Union. Lawmakers passed legislation Thursday under which the UK would essentially still be treated as an EU member during the nearly two-year transition foreseen by the withdrawal agreement that the British Parliament rejected this week.,
- the leader of Plaid Cymru has said it was "good to talk" to Prime Minister Theresa May about the Brexit deadlock,
- Germany's Foreign Minister Heiko Maas told parliament that the EU is prepared to consider carefully a new British proposal but it's "barely conceivable" that the withdrawal deal rejected by British lawmakers this week could be reopened. He added that "a clear perspective" from Britain was needed "to answer the question of whether and how long" there could be an extension.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 17 Jan, 2019 01:13 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
56 per cent of voters now back staying in the EU, while 44 per cent who still want to leave, according to the YouGov survey found. (The survey was conduted after MPs overwhelmingly rejected Theresa May's deal earlier this week.)
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 17 Jan, 2019 01:22 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
56 per cent of voters now back staying in the EU
. I'm happy to see that the majority has the common sense to remain.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Fri 18 Jan, 2019 02:34 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Is there a Brexit deal that could win the backing of parliament?
It’s hard to say, because proponents of every alternative make bold claims about how many MPs support their cherished model.

The extraordinary margin of victory in Tuesday’s vote against Theresa May’s deal suggests that even if the prime minister could persuade Brussels to agree to an end date for the Irish backstop, it would not be enough to assemble a majority.

She could try offering legally binding promises on workers’ rights and environmental standards to try to win over Labour MPs from leave-backing constituencies.

But many at Westminster believe the only deal that could garner support would have to include a customs union – which is fiercely opposed by leave-supporting Conservative backbenchers because it would curtail Britain’s rights to make new trade deals. Some even say they would split the Tory party over the issue.


How likely is a no-deal Brexit?
There is no majority in parliament for a no-deal Brexit, but under the EU Withdrawal Act 2018 the UK will leave the EU on 29 March whether a deal is in place or not.

In order to avoid the significant economic and legal disruption that would result from leaving without a deal, the government must either win the support of parliament for a withdrawal agreement or delay or revoke article 50, the formal process of leaving.

After Tuesday’s defeat, May said she would talk to “senior parliamentarians” to try to find a deal that MPs could back. But with the prime minister reluctant to budge on any of her “red lines”, it is far from clear how she can achieve this.


Can article 50 really be extended?
A British request for more time is seen as almost inevitable by Brussels, not just because MPs are locked in stalemate, but because it looks impossible for parliament to pass all the necessary pre-Brexit legislation before 29 March. “If the UK comes around and asks for an extension of article 50 for a good reason, I don’t really see any one of the EU27 objecting,” one EU diplomat said.

For the EU, “a good reason” is not another six months of chaos and confusion at Westminster – but a second referendum would not be the only condition for an extension; there may be other good reasons.


Would an extension mean Nigel Farage remains an MEP?
If article 50 was extended beyond the summer the UK might be obliged to take part in European elections in late May. In which case, Farage, the former Ukip leader and key pro-Brexit campaigner, has said he would run.

However some EU officials think Brussels can come up with legal fixes, such as allowing the UK government to appoint national parliamentarians to represent the UK during the extension period.


Could Brexit still be stopped?
Yes, but there is currently no majority in parliament for that option. MPs would have to legislate for a second referendum, which would mean extending article 50 for several months. And without a deal on the table that parliament can agree on, it is unclear what the “Brexit” option on the ballot paper would really mean.


What else could May try?
The prime minister is so decisively boxed in that only dramatic moves remain open to her. One of those is to call a general election.

May believes strongly that her deal is closer to what the public wanted when they voted in the referendum, than a softer, Norway-style deal which would allow continued freedom of movement, and which she derides as a “politicians’ Brexit”.

She could choose to trigger a referendum herself, again to appeal directly to the public, over the heads of her squabbling MPs. Or she could resign. With much of Britain’s future trading relationship with the EU yet to be negotiated, May could pledge to step down in exchange for supporting her deal, and let a leaver take over for the next stage.
The Guardian
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 18 Jan, 2019 02:58 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
The perfect example of Catch 22.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 19 Jan, 2019 11:11 am
@cicerone imposter,
Theresa May to face House of Lords ambush that would scupper her Brexit trade plans
Quote:
Peers set to shelve trade bill in anger over threats to food safety and animal welfare - but it is essential if the UK crashes out of EU

Theresa May hopes of avoiding a chaotic Brexit face another big blow from a House of Lords ambush that would sabotage putting in place essential new trade rules.

The government is set to be defeated on Monday when peers rebel in anger over ministers’ refusal to guarantee food safety, animal welfare and the power of parliament to block a free-for-all, The Independent has learned.

In an extremely rare move, the Lords is poised to vote to shelve the trade bill unless the government agrees to put flesh on the “skeleton” – something ministers have failed to do for 15 months.

Crucially, Liam Fox, the trade secretary, has admitted that preparations for a no-deal Brexit – by falling back on World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules – are impossible unless the trade bill passes.

“They need the trade bill for Brexit and we are extremely confident this vote will be successful, unless the government stops just saying ‘trust us’,” said a Lords source.

Under the plan, detailed scrutiny of the legislation will be abandoned until the government explains how future trade agreements will be agreed and scrutinized.

Ministers have stoked controversy about whether they would allow the import of chickens soaked in chlorine, beef fed with hormones and genetically modified crops, in the desperation for a US trade deal.

Last year, the prime minister, asked if parts of the NHS would be up “for sale”, said it was too early to judge what “requirements” the US would have in those post-Brexit talks.

Now the passage of the trade bill is in jeopardy with the potential derailing of an already extraordinarily tight timetable, with just 68 days until departure on 29 March.

Without the bill, the government cannot “roll over” 40 trade deals with other countries enjoyed through EU membership that will lapse if the UK leaves without a deal.

It will also be unable to sign up to the WTO’s general procurement agreement (GPA), in order to buy goods and services, presented by Brexiteers as the route to a no-deal future.
... ... ...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2019 11:24 am
@Walter Hinteler,
What a freggin mess they created all on their own.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2019 12:19 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Indecision can be a terrible thing. The results of the plebiscite on leaving were fairly close, but at the time surprising to then PM Cameron. Now as the real event approaches numerous (usually solvable) issues are being thrown up to unnerve the electorate and the government. So far PM May has been remarkably steadfast. I don't know what will follow, but my bet is the UK will leave the EU.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2019 01:07 pm
@georgeob1,
I believe the UK leaving the EU is the worst decision they can make. That's the impression I have from my studies in Economics.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2019 01:15 pm
@cicerone imposter,
There is more to both the economic and political issues involved than just free trade with the EU.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2019 01:18 pm
@georgeob1,
That's what makes it so daunting.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2019 01:30 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I agree with that. I expect such questions are behind most of the political turmoil in the UK.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2019 01:35 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
There is more to both the economic and political issues involved than just free trade with the EU.
Indeed. Especially the land border between the EU (Ireland) and the UK (Northern Ireland) is a very big problem.
And the problems all those people living abroad will get - EU-citizens in the UK and UK-citizens in EU-country (the latter seem to be a bit better off, since EU-countries worked on this already).

The biggest problem, however, will be a divided country. And perhaps the end of the Union.


But I can understand why a lot voted for Brexit: who could not want Vote Leave’s promise that the UK would get £350m a week for the NHS to come good? Or Michael Gove and Boris Johnson’s promise that Brexit would involve "no change to the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic"? Or Liam Fox’s promise that the EU would grant the UK the "easiest trade deal" in history? Or that the Tories would bring the UK back to the glory of the Empire after leaving the EU?
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2019 01:57 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:


The biggest problem, however, will be a divided country. And perhaps the end of the Union.

I don't wish to see either occur. (Though I do have a hard time working up any sympathy for the British in dealing with their legacy of centuries in exploiting Ireland.)

I don't have a close enough appreciation of UK politics to speculate on out-of-context statements by various British political figures on the elements of the Brexit debate. I suspect there has been a good deal of foolishness on both sides of the debate - that is the usual case on such divisive issues.

I do believe the EU has been a so far very successful force for the benefit of Europe. However the world remains as full of conflict and dangers as it has been throughout history. I believe that internally the EU needs to better in rationalizing the limits of the central governing apparatus to protect some defined measures of state sovereignty, and to do better in dealing with the many external threats it now faces. All this is easy to say, but very hard to do. However I believe such issues will remain, whatever may be the outcome of the Brexit issue.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2019 02:10 pm
@georgeob1,
Not much different than Trump's border wall.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2019 02:29 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
I suspect there has been a good deal of foolishness on both sides of the debate - that is the usual case on such divisive issues.
I haven't seen any "foolishness" by the Remainers - besides that Brexiters called them fools.

georgeob1 wrote:
whatever may be the outcome of the Brexit issue
The outcome of the Brexit will be ... a Brexit.
And if it's a hard or a soft some, there will be loosers on both sides.
For individuals it will get worse in the UK while some(several EU countries will get the problems more in their economy (and budgets) than it will have effects for the individuals.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2019 03:03 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I agree with the "remainers."
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2019 03:20 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Cabinet ministers involved in cross-party talks on how to break the Brexit deadlock have given the first indication that they are prepared to examine plans for a potential second referendum on the UK’s departure from the EU, according to the Liberal Democrat leader, Sir Vince Cable.

The offer to examine a possible timetable for a second vote drawn up by the Lib Dems was made during discussions between senior Liberal Democrats and two cabinet ministers involved in the talks, Michael Gove and David Lidington, in the Cabinet Office on Thursday morning.
[...]
The government insists that any referendum that could reverse the 2016 decision to leave the EU would be a betrayal of the will of the people. It has also suggested that a second vote would take up to a year to prepare and conduct. But the Liberal Democrats have produced draft legislation which they say would allow one to be held far sooner: before the next European elections in May.
... ... ...
The Guardian

It hasn't been the hottest topic, the next European election, in all those Brexit talks and conferences. But it would be peculiar funny, if the UK leaves the EU but still elects lawmakers for the EU-parliament.
 

Related Topics

THE BRITISH THREAD II - Discussion by jespah
FOLLOWING THE EUROPEAN UNION - Discussion by Mapleleaf
The United Kingdom's bye bye to Europe - Discussion by Walter Hinteler
Sinti and Roma: History repeating - Discussion by Walter Hinteler
[B]THE RED ROSE COUNTY[/B] - Discussion by Mathos
Leaving today for Europe - Discussion by cicerone imposter
So you think you know Europe? - Discussion by nimh
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.06 seconds on 04/20/2024 at 03:46:15