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Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

 
 
Lash
 
  0  
Sat 21 Jul, 2018 07:02 am
@Olivier5,
I think, in the past ( before our government became so corrupt ), the US generally cheered independence ( so happy about our own ), that supporting a country wanting to break away from a larger entity would be the default American position. This definitely explains my own personal feelings. When Georgia and the other Eastern European countries wanted freedom from Russia, I cheered them. I also have a heart for England and Catalonia as they seek increased independence.

I am against forced associations.

Tear down that wall, Mr Gorbachev...

My country has changed.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 21 Jul, 2018 07:15 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

I think, in the past ( before our government became so corrupt ), the US generally cheered independence ( so happy about our own ), that supporting a country wanting to break away from a larger entity would be the default American position. This definitely explains my own personal feelings. When Georgia and the other Eastern European countries wanted freedom from Russia, I cheered them. I also have a heart for England and Catalonia as they seek increased independence.
Now, that really needs some more words from you!

- when did "Georgia and the other Eastern European countries" want freedom from Russia and when did you cheer for them? (If you were referring to the collapse of the USSR: why didn't you cheer for the other countries, the Baltic states, Central Asian states, the two other Transcaucasian countries besides Georgia?)
- when/where did you hear that England seeks increased independence? (Do you refer here to those, who want an English parliament? English independence as a way to resolve the West Lothian question in British politics?)


And since you started this thread about "why Brits want out of the EU": the UK has voted to leave this political and economic union. And are now struggling how to do it but still get cream from the EU.

Setanta
 
  1  
Sat 21 Jul, 2018 07:52 am
Ah yes--when the Russians provided Abkhazian and Ossetian separatists with military material and air strikes against the Georgians, that was because of the long and proud tradition of supporting national self-determination among the Russians. The rest of that drivel is equally idiotic. You're wasting your time, Walter.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 21 Jul, 2018 08:03 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
You're wasting your time, Walter.
Actually, I've meanwhile learnt quite a bit about English separatism.

0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Sat 21 Jul, 2018 09:38 am
@Walter Hinteler,
As usual, you’re ridiculously pedantic and intentionally obtuse.

You know exactly what I meant. I did refer to the break up of the USSR, and I was happy about the independence of all who claimed it.

See if you can tease out a dangling modifier.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 21 Jul, 2018 09:40 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
You know exactly what I meant.
Not really. You could have referred to break ups from Russia.

Lash wrote:
I did refer to the break up of the USSR.
Well, you didn't write that.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  4  
Sat 21 Jul, 2018 12:58 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

I think, in the past ( before our government became so corrupt ), the US generally cheered independence ( so happy about our own ), that supporting a country wanting to break away from a larger entity would be the default American position.

Oh you think? So when Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina and Texas broke up with the US in February 1861, and declared their secession from the U.S. to form the Confederate States of America, you think they should have been left alone by Lincoln, huh?

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 21 Jul, 2018 01:19 pm
@Olivier5,
Doesn't slavery make the difference?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 21 Jul, 2018 01:32 pm
The Independent: UK still shut out of EU-wide crime-fighting database three years after Theresa May vowed to join
Quote:
The UK is still shut out of a key EU-wide crime-fighting measure, almost three years after Theresa May announced it would join – sparking warnings over her hopes for a rapid security deal to protect the public after Brexit.

Ministers vowed to start the fast-track exchange of vital fingerprint, DNA and vehicle registration data by 2017, but talks with the EU are still deadlocked, The Independent has learned.

The failure to secure participation in the Prüm Convention – which the government opted to join in way back in November 2015 – comes despite the prime minister warning lives are “put at risk” without it.

The long delay also casts huge doubt on Ms May’s hopes of signing a comprehensive security deal in time for Brexit, given that would be a far more complex task.
[...]
And Layla Moran, a supporter of the anti-Brexit Best for Britain group, said: “If the government cannot even deliver on a simple thing like Prüm, which is in our interest, how can the prime minister deliver a security deal? [Emphasises by me]
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 21 Jul, 2018 01:51 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
The Home Office is failing to keep track of how many customs officers it has despite warnings of chaos at Britain’s ports and airports in the event of a looming “no deal” Brexit.

Officials admitted to The Independent that they were unable to provide a count of the number of border officials employed for customs checks and they were unsure of whether the number had increased or decreased in recent years.

Across the Channel the Dutch government has confirmed it is hiring 930 extra customs officials for the port of Rotterdam and Schiphol airport, major hubs that do a lot of trade with the UK, with the aim of avoiding backlogs.

But the British government appears less prepared for its own departure from the EU, with no signs of a similar plan having yet surfaced.
[...]
The department said it did “not hold data on the numbers of staff who are currently detailed to perform customs roles” and that it would be too expensive to work out the number of officers, as doing so would require a “manual extensive check” of records at various fragmented facilities scattered across the UK.
[...]
A spokesperson for the Home Office said: “We have established that the Home Office does not hold the information which you have requested. We do not hold data on the numbers of staff who are currently detailed to perform customs roles exclusively.
The Independent
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Sat 21 Jul, 2018 07:39 pm
@Olivier5,
Some states made their play for independence. They lost.

A difference to me is that the countries in the EU had formed separately, agreed to join a larger entity, did so, and then changed their minds. The United States was, roughly, territories cobbled to an entity defined as United States.

That may not be an acceptable distinction to you. That’s ok with me.

Right now, California is making noise about leaving the union. I’d support that.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 21 Jul, 2018 08:13 pm
@Lash,
That's only noise from a very small group.
Lash
 
  1  
Sat 21 Jul, 2018 08:44 pm
@cicerone imposter,
They attempted to get it on a recent ballot, but, as I guess you know, it was thrown out.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Sat 21 Jul, 2018 09:47 pm
@Lash,
That's been tried in the past, but didn't have enough support. California is the 6th largest economy in the world. Why should we split and create more state and local economic and political problems.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 21 Jul, 2018 10:57 pm
Quote:
The UK could refuse to pay its £39 billion divorce bill to Brussels if it does not get a trade deal, the Brexit secretary, Dominic Raab, has signalled.

Raab said there had to be “conditionality” under the Article 50 withdrawal mechanism between settling Britain’s exit payment and creating a new relationship with the EU.

Meanwhile, he indicated he was still trying to persuade all members of the cabinet that Theresa May’s Chequers agreement was “the best plan to get the best deal”. The former Brexit secretary David Davis has urged the prime minister to “reset” her negotiating strategy.
The Guardian
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Sat 21 Jul, 2018 11:30 pm
Anyone who would support the secession of California is completely clueless. Of course, this would lead to economic chaos in the rest of the Union--and, as C.I. has pointed out, it would be economic disaster for California. Quite apart from that, Los Angeles in one of the major financial centers in the world, and the city as well as the rest of the Union would suffer from that, too. Additionally, California is a major locus of defense industries. A. T. Kearney, an American and global corporate management firm for more than 90 years, has this to say about the aerospace industry in California:

Quote:
At the same time, aerospace is a crucial component of California's economy, both as a significant source of high-paying jobs and as an incubator for technological innovation. It is one of California's largest industries, with annual revenues equal to the prominent agriculture and entertainment industries combined.


Source

It is also a major site for military bases. According to Militarybases-dot-com, there are 32 military bases in California.

Oh yeah, the secession of California is great idea. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Sun 22 Jul, 2018 12:32 am
There have been actually two measures put forward by the people of California: to separate into three states, and to secede.

Again, I support a state voting to make their own choices about their identities and affiliations.
Setanta
 
  0  
Sun 22 Jul, 2018 01:12 am
Anyone who thinks secession, or the fragmentation of any state in the Union is a good idea is clueless.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Sun 22 Jul, 2018 02:10 am
@Lash,
Quote:
A difference to me is that the countries in the EU had formed separately, agreed to join a larger entity, did so, and then changed their minds.

They haven't changed their mind, though. Only the UK, in a fit of irrationality. People are allowed to be irrational, of course. Good ridance to them is what I say.

Anyway, the US fought secession in a long and costly war, so one cannot seriously say that "supporting a country wanting to break away from a larger entity would be the default American position." Therefore, we're left with no serious reason why the US ought to be so suspicioius about the EU, apart from, well, fear of other people's success.
Lash
 
  0  
Sun 22 Jul, 2018 03:05 am
@Olivier5,
I don’t think anyone’s suspicious of the EU.
 

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