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Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

 
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jul, 2018 12:04 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Until the next vote, that is...
Olivier5
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jul, 2018 12:07 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I'm not sure, but wikipedia has a longer report abut the Suiss-EU relations.

It seems what May's proposing in terms of taxes is puzzling a lot of people by its potential complexity, and has never been tried anywhere, anytime.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jul, 2018 12:12 pm
@Olivier5,
http://www.businessinsider.com/eu-barnier-rejects-theresa-may-brexit-backstop-proposals-2018-6
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jul, 2018 12:53 pm
@Olivier5,
Yes, true
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jul, 2018 12:54 pm
@Olivier5,
However, just now the government has backed down on plans to bring forward MP's summer break, less than 24 hours after first proposing it.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jul, 2018 02:08 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
https://i.imgur.com/r793EhW.jpg
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jul, 2018 02:12 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
BREAK IT.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jul, 2018 12:19 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Everyday dairy products such as butter, yoghurt and cheese could become luxury items in Britain after Brexit, with price rises being caused by the slightest delay in the journey from farm to table, a report by the London School of Economics finds.

The LSE research, commissioned by the company behind Lurpak, Anchor and Arla brands, also found that speciality cheeses could become scarce after Brexit, with escalating costs whatever the outcome of the exit negotiations.

Ash Amirahmadi, the UK managing director of Arla Foods, said: “Our dependence on imported dairy products means that disruption to the supply chain will have a big impact. Most likely we would see shortages of products and a sharp rise in prices, turning everyday staples like butter, yoghurts, cheese and infant formula, into occasional luxuries. Speciality cheeses, where there are currently limited options for production, may become very scarce.”

The LSE report comes a year to the day after the government was warned that it was “sleepwalking” into a post-Brexit future of insecure, unsafe and increasingly expensive food supplies.
The Guardian
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Wed 18 Jul, 2018 11:20 am
@Olivier5,
It even could be that she is puzzled by her own plan, too:
May struggles to explain customs plan in grilling by senior MPs
Quote:
Theresa May has struggled to explain how her post-Brexit customs plan will work, during a difficult appearance before a Commons committee where one senior MP said the proposals had left her “really baffled”.

In tough exchanges at the liaison committee, which brings together the chairs of each of the subject-specific select committees, the prime minister eventually seemed to concede that elements of the plan were still to be decided.

Coming shortly after the former foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, labelled May’s customs idea “a fantastical, Heath Robinson customs arrangement”, the PM was pressed repeatedly on the issue by Yvette Cooper.

The Labour MP, who chairs the home affairs committee, asked how mutual trade in a future era of potentially different tariffs would work, noting that the Brexit white paper says Britain is “not proposing that the EU applies the UK’s tariffs and trade policy at its border for goods intended for the UK”.

This is a key contradiction for May’s “facilitated customs arrangement”, after she a accepted on Monday an amendment to the customs bill that said the UK could not collect duties on goods on behalf of the EU unless there was a reciprocal arrangement.

May said there was no disconnect, insisting the white paper allowed for reciprocity. She said it proposed a method under which any varying tariffs would be collected for goods arriving in the UK destined for the EU, and vice versa.

“The important thing here is there is reciprocity in the sums of money that would be paid,” she said.

However, under repeated questioning from Cooper, May struggled to explain how the system would actually operate.

“This is not a question of somebody physically handing cash over at the border,” the PM said, but added only that a “formula revenue agreement” would determine what payments were made and to whom.

Cooper asked where this would happen. May replied: “There will be a formula agreement with the the European Union in terms of the sums of money ... Importers will be under a requirement to ensure they have paid the correct tariffs.”

When she was then asked to whom the money would be paid, she responded: “What matters is what money comes to the United Kingdom.”

After more expressions of confusion from Cooper, May appeared to concede that many details had yet to be worked out.

Cooper said May’s responses had left her “really baffled”, adding: “We’ve still got this statement in the white paper which says that we’re not going to have the EU applying the UK’s tariffs and trade policies at the border, but you accepted an amendment, new clause 36 two days ago, which requires reciprocity.”

Cooper said such vagueness risked jeopardising public faith in May’s Brexit plans: “Everybody’s confused, and as a result nobody trusts what the government is doing.”

May responded: “I’m not sure what is baffling about it, exchanging sums of money that are relevant to both parties, but there we are.”


Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jul, 2018 12:26 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
This, Walt, is sheer absurdity. Such level of incompentence, of improvisation... The thing is not even logically consistent.


Je lis le vice
Et je pense à Carrol, Lewis
-- Gainsbare

0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jul, 2018 01:29 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
That's just basic Economics 101. It makes one wonder what all those Brexit people are attempting to accomplish because the cost is going to be much greater than the benefit. It's shameful that even the United States is struggling with immigration issues at a time when our country can use some young blood to balance our demographics. Many immigrants also fill jobs that native Americans fails to fill. How many native Americans work on our farms or restaurants? Many are blinded by their own bigotry, and can't see the big picture for our future. http://hungerreport.org/featured/immigrants-us-food-system/
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 19 Jul, 2018 11:02 am
@cicerone imposter,
The European Union has issued a 16-page document outlining the preparations that need to be made for Brexit. It includes advice on how countries, companies and individuals should prepare for the prospect of the UK leaving with "no deal" in place.

>Document here<

If there is a deal, there will also be a transition period running until 31 December 2020 during which EU rules and regulations will continue to apply in the UK.
Without a deal, the transition (or "implementation period" as the UK government calls it) falls away and the relationship will change abruptly at the end of March next year.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Thu 19 Jul, 2018 04:41 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Coming shortly after the former foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, labelled May’s customs idea “a fantastical, Heath Robinson customs arrangement”


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-O6nFSom58WY/Uqj7q_FAvQI/AAAAAAAACqs/NFQ__gUfuB0/s1600/crop07632.JPG

likely the most popular poster at the residence I lived in during my university days
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Fri 20 Jul, 2018 06:45 am
I think after they finally cut this cord, things will improve. The sky isn’t falling. Pre-Obama, most American presidents would have embraced a post-EU England.

Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 20 Jul, 2018 07:00 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
I think after they finally cut this cord, things will improve.
That's by now only the opinion of the hard-Brexiters.

But how, do you think, will it work out with Northern Ireland-Ireland?
Just neglecting this?

What about those 3 million EU-citizens in the UK? The more than one million UK-citizens in the EU?
Neglecting as well?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 20 Jul, 2018 07:12 am
@Walter Hinteler,
This moment, Michel Barnier gives the EU's verdict on the Chequers plan after Theresa May's Northern Ireland speech (she visited NI for the first time since taking office!).

From Politico's Charlie Cooper:
https://i.imgur.com/EuKeHFql.jpg
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 20 Jul, 2018 07:35 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Mr Barnier said Ms May’s complicated proposal for customs would likely create huge amounts of new paperwork, warning: “Brexit cannot and will not justify additional bureaucracy”.

The Commission chief negotiator also raised a series of concerns with the PM’s plan to keep the UK following a “common rulebook” of single market rules for goods, which she had hoped would allow frictionless trade with the EU.

Mr Barnier said the plan to exclude UK services from following single market rules could give a “significant competitive advantage” to the UK and that agreeing to such a plan might not be in the EU’s best interests.

He also suggested it would be unreasonable to exclude some goods such as animal feed from the rulebook, as proposed by the UK, stating: “We have a duty of care to protect consumer sin the single market and on which basis could we accept the free circulation of goods?”

The chief negotiator also said the EU could not delegate collection of its own customs duties to a country that was not a member state – suggesting that the backbone of the PM’s proposal might not even be ”legally feasible”. Mr Barnier also said there would be “practical problems” determining which tariff to apply to goods and that there was ”major risk of fraud”.

But he was was careful not to reject the plan outright, phrasing his criticism as questions to the UK negotiators. Mr Barnier said the plan was positive in many ways, including the UK signing up to EU “level playing field” competition rules, the creation of a free trade agreement, and on security cooperation.

“There’s no justification for us to create additional burdens on business just because the UK wants to leave,” he told reporters in Brussels. ”If you look at the political situation today we have many reasons to keep and protect our single market, find ways of cooperating with the UK, whilst respecting their decision to leave the EU and looking at the red lines of the UK. They’re the ones who established the red lines.”

The intervention by Mr Barnier represents the first response from the to the PM's white paper, which Boris Johnson, David Davis, and the majority of ministers at the Department for Exiting the EU quit the government over.

The EU official reiterated that the UK needed to agree to a "backstop" solution to the Northern Ireland border if it wanted a withdrawal agreement and did not want to crash out with no deal come March. He stated that there were just 13 weeks of talks left.
From the Independent's live coverage

The EU negotiators must feel like they're arguing with a bunch of drunks that keep repeating a bunch of recycled proposals.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Fri 20 Jul, 2018 12:26 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
I think after they finally cut this cord, things will improve. The sky isn’t falling.
Certainly the sky wouldn't be falling.
But would things really improve?

The two-year period (Article 50) ends on 29 March 2019 (or 30 March, as it would be in continental Europe).
Without a withdrawal agreement here would be no transition period after Brexit = an abrupt rupture in UK/EU relations.

Then, there would be no specific arrangement on the rights of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU, there would be border checks, drivers had to have an international driving licence (that would be 7 million for the UK it was said), people from the UK going to the continent must have overseas health insurance, the UK would have substantially less access to the EU single market, etc etc.
From one day to the other. Abruptly. And obviously not well prepared (okay, the EU just published a document about it as well as 68 technical notices for the member states).
There are no deals about e.g. what happens to UK planes when the UK has left the European Aviation Safety Agency, the supply line chains for food and medicines would be disrupted ...

However, if both sides conclude soon that negotiations will not succeed and that the "no deal" is highly likely, both will at least have several months to prepare.

I suspect that the EU is better prepared than the UK
(Those driving licences are an example: they only this week noticed the International Driving Permits thing: 100,000 International Driving Permits are issued every year by 89 post offices around the country. In the first year after a no-deal Brexit, those numbers would rise to an estimated 4,500 post offices issuing up to seven million permits - to take into account journeys into the EU.
And I wonder how long it will take that someone in the UK notices: the British Forces (they are still here until 2020 with some thousand soldiers and families, afterwards still with some hundreds) have "NHS partnerhospitals here (will be just one in the nearby city soon). And the "SSAFA GSTT Care LLP" (a partnership between SSAFA Forces Help [SSAFA] and Guy's and St Thomas' Trust [GSTT].is considered to be equivalent to one of the 300 German mandatory heath insurance companies ....)

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 20 Jul, 2018 01:07 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I think the political and economic consequences of Brexit is still not known. From where I stand (in the US), I see much confusion and added costs for everybody. From what I learned in college in Economics, interfering with free trade is going to cost no matter what agreements are settled on. Negotiations are going to be messy.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Sat 21 Jul, 2018 01:53 am
@Lash,
Quote:
Pre-Obama, most American presidents would have embraced a post-EU England. 

I never understood the US impatience with the EU. Why do you guys care so much if we Europeans experiment (slowly, painfuly) with supra-nationality? Is this about the US empire fear of losing vassal states, of Europe becoming too independent from the US?

Given where the US is heading right now, the idea of a strong European Union is as good as ever. Granted that it's still an idea, somewhat.
 

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