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Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

 
 
saab
 
  1  
Tue 17 May, 2016 02:35 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
JyllandsPosten this morning the 17th of May

Danske landmænd er de mest effektive - nu kommer straffen fra EU
Dansk landbrug ser ud til at ende som den helt store taber i det klimaspil, der nu indledes i Bruxelles.

Nye klimakrav kan udradere en stor del af Danmarks landbrugsproduktion
Prisfald ryster mælkeproducenter: »Der kommer flere konkurser - vi nærmer os noget, der er uoverskueligt«

Setanta
 
  2  
Tue 17 May, 2016 02:44 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
The Bosnians did not attack the Serbs, and the Tutsi did not attack the Hutu in Rwanda. But Japan did attack the United States--and Britain, and France and Holland, as well as invading China before the war started in Europe. The two atomic bombs did far less damage than the deliberate fire-bombing of 66 Japanese cities which came before the atomic attacks. People are idiots when it comes to history. Was it genocide when the RAF relentlessly bombed German cities, and even experimented to get the right ordnance mix to produce fire storms? Would you claim that the British were trying to exterminate the Germans as a people? People get all worked up over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but don't seem to have been unduly bothered by the millions of people the Japanese killed in the eight years of war which preceded that. That can be said to be a tu quoque fallacy, but the moral questrion implicit is rather idiotic. Would you rather be vaporized in an atomic attack, of suffocate as a fire storm sucks up all the oxygen around you, or be roasted alive in your home? The United States wasn't trying to exterminate the Japanese people. We were trying to get the stupid sons-of-bitches to admit they were beaten and surrender. The net effect of those two bombs was to save the lives of tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousand of Allied soldiers, and Japanese.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 17 May, 2016 04:56 am
@saab,
Interestingly, the discussion in Germany (not only but especially) today isn't about climate change but about the dairy produce quota/milk quota.
saab
 
  1  
Tue 17 May, 2016 05:23 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Germany and others want out of nuclear power and now EU wants more.
Tell me it is not true.
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/atomkraft-eu-kommission-will-kernenergie-in-europa-staerken-a-1092584.html
Got the information over JyllandsPosten
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 17 May, 2016 05:46 am
@saab,
Why shouldn't it be true?
Germany gets the last nuclear power off net in 2022 - the EU will support nuclear energy more.

Bad luck for electricity companies owning those stations and now promoting "green energy" that they didn't know this before.
saab
 
  1  
Tue 17 May, 2016 06:02 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Sorry I thought Germany was taken a good step by getting out of nuclear power and then EU will support more nuclear energy.
I find it unfair to Germany. Getting rid of their power plants and then getting more across the border - or have I misunderstood the whole thing?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 17 May, 2016 06:13 am
@saab,
Don't know. The EU-Commission is said to consider this.
(We still export more electricity than we import.)
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 17 May, 2016 09:09 am
@Walter Hinteler,
According to the latest news, this paper is just thought to be a basis for discussion ("Green Paper") by the Directorate-General for Research and Innovation , the Commission said according to a spiegel-online report.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Tue 17 May, 2016 12:16 pm
For some the EU is quite useful (though it won't work how it's wanted)


Ukip MEP Jane Collins invokes her European Parliament 'legal immunity' in British court
Quote:
A Ukip MEP has invoked legal “immunity” given to her by the European Parliament in a slander and libel case brought against her in a British court.
[...]
British MPs have parliamentary privilege to say anything they like in the House of Commons and in committees without fear of an action for slander – but can be sued for anything they say outside of the chamber.

Members of the European Parliament “shall not be subject to any form of inquiry, detention or legal proceedings in respect of opinions expressed or votes cast by them in the performance of their duties” and additionally receive the same privileges as national MPs.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 18 May, 2016 10:01 am
@Walter Hinteler,
So the Guardian did I report about I actually wanted to write myself:

Brexeunt stage left: the Europeans hoping that Britain votes Brexit

Quote:
France
[...] Le Pen has hailed the UK’s referendum and suggested she may cross the Channel to campaign for Brexit (Vote Leave said it would “not be welcoming her” if she did). A vote to leave would “prove it’s possible to live outside the EU. You’re either free or you aren’t,” Le Figaro quoted her as saying. [...]

Germany and Austria
[...]So while the AfD would not campaign for Gerxit (a German exit) or welcome Brexit, it will certainly push for widespread reform of the institutions – and views Britain and the Brexit debate as a motor for that.

In the words of the party leader, Frauke Petry: “A British exit from the EU would be fatal because the British are often the voice of reason ... and bring with them a healthy corrective to the madness of the expansion project. If Britain left, we’d also lose a net contributor to the budget [and Germany] would have to shoulder the financial loss to the EU.” [...]

Across the border, Austria’s Freedom party, which recently swept the first round of the presidential election with 36.4% of the vote, has been campaigning against further European integration since 2005.[...]

Visegrád countries
Nationalist governments in central and eastern Europe have seized on Britain’s referendum as a precedent-setting opportunity to change their own relationship with Brussels.

But much of the EU-related tough-talk of the Visegrád group – 64 million people in Poland, Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic – is posturing for domestic consumption.

Appearing to stand up to Brussels spices up nationalist rhetoric in countries with living memories of superpower domination. In reality, the young EU members of the east are too wedded to the EU’s benefits – development funds and the free movement of labour – to dream of their own exit. [...]

Belgium and the Netherlands
As a small country that is home to the EU institutions, Belgium is one of the staunchest supporters of European integration. But one party is hoping for Brexit – the far-right Flemish separatist party, Vlaams Belang. [...]

The Freedom party leader, Geert Wilders, also an admirer of Farage, hopes Britain will vote to leave the EU. “A Brexit would make it easier for other countries to make the same decision,” he said in January. [...]

Scandinavia
The clearest voices in support of Britain leaving the EU are small parties on the left. They reject nationalist and xenophobic arguments but accuse Brussels of putting the interests of banks and corporations first on issues such as health, welfare, human rights and the environment. [...]

On the right wing of Scandinavian politics, Eurosceptic voices are more powerful – but also more ambiguous. [...]

Italy
Italy’s love for the EU is not as strong as it once was, with a recent poll by Ipsos Mori showing almost half of Italians would vote to leave the EU if they were given the chance.

Two political parties have given voice to that frustration: the Five Star Movement (M5S), a populist anti-establishment party whose founder, Beppe Grillo, has said he admires Farage, and the rightwing Northern League. [...]
saab
 
  1  
Wed 18 May, 2016 10:37 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Very interesting and scary at the same time.
It´s not good that it is the parties to the extreem that want out - whatever left or right.
I remember a friend of ours said years ago "I`ll give EU about 30 years"
Scary if that would turn out to be a fact.
I am not a pro EU but I can see the concequences of it falling apart.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 18 May, 2016 11:19 am
@saab,
saab wrote:
I remember a friend of ours said years ago "I`ll give EU about 30 years"
Scary if that would turn out to be a fact.
saab wrote:
... EU came into force on 1 November 1993 ...
Still some time to go Wink

But seriously: even when you look back to the 50's and 60's, 70's and 80's - there have always been some groups in the then actual member countries, who saw the end of the "European Organisation" coming soon.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 18 May, 2016 11:29 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I still remember that my parents discussed (in the 50's) with our Dutch relatives and their Dutch friends, if other European countries could form something similar to the Benelux Economic Union.
And at school, we wrote papers why six countries in the EEC were enough or not. (In the 70's, a wrote a year's paper at university, if England should join the EEC or not ... ... ...)
saab
 
  1  
Wed 18 May, 2016 01:14 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Can´t remember any discussions about anything like that.
Sweden was late in joining anything because of the neutrality politics.
Joined EFTA 1960
Then from 1970 to 1986 were discussions about EG and EES.
Somehow I have a feeling of there was Scandinavia and the continent and it was sooo far away.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 18 May, 2016 01:26 pm
@saab,
Sweden was a founding member of the EFTA (Stockholm Convention).
(EFTA was founded by countries, who were unable or unwilling to join the European Economic Community.)
saab wrote:
Somehow I have a feeling of there was Scandinavia and the continent and it was sooo far away.
Well, besides Denmark, Norway, and Sweden, the continental countries Austria, Portugal, Switzerland and the UK were founding members as well.

(Seven EFTA versus six EEC countries.)
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 20 May, 2016 03:00 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The prime minister of Canada, Justin Trudeau, poured cold water on the leave campaigners' suggestion that the UK should follow the "Canadian model" as he argued it would be better off in the EU.
Canada joins anti-Brexit voices and urges Britain to stay in the EU
saab
 
  2  
Fri 20 May, 2016 03:17 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I do not know if Britain will be better off in or out of EU.
But I am sure EU will be a better place with Britain than without.
So hopefully UK will stay.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 20 May, 2016 05:15 am
@saab,
From the NYT-report: ‘Brexit,’ a Feel-Good Vote That Could Sink Britain’s Economy
Quote:
“We don’t have control over what happens to our country,” he said. “We can’t get rid of undesirables. E.U. regulations prevent all manner of things.”

What about trade, economic growth and jobs? Mr. Plumb said Brexit fears were overblown. And if there is a price to be paid, abandoning Europe will be worth it.

“It’s about being our own sovereign nation again,” Mr. Plumb said. “It would make the country feel better. It’s a feeling.”
0 Replies
 
Tes yeux noirs
 
  2  
Fri 20 May, 2016 11:23 am
Latest "Poll of Polls" (aggregate of 6 polls between 11 and 17 May)

remain: 55% leave: 45%

A big swing to remain toward the end of that period.

The lead for remain in phone polls is now about 8-12% when people who respond "don't know" are eliminated, down from about 20% last year. Internet polls have been suggesting a virtual dead heat for months. There's been a lot of discussion about why the two types of poll are different and which is more accurate. One theory is that the internet polls get more "don't know" or "undecided" responses because they offer it as an option on the screen. In phone polls, "don't know" is not usually offered as an option although respondents can choose not to back either side. The theory is that more people who say "don't know" in internet polls are likely to vote remain than leave when push comes to shove.

Research seems to show that there appears to be a large pool of voters who, if offered the option to say "Don't Know", will pick that. That is typically how the online polls are put together. But if they're only prompted to answer "Leave" or "Remain", they tend to move to "Remain" and that is typically how phone polls are constructed.

This may suggest, as I said before, that there is a pool of people who are semi-engaged and don't want to commit, even to a pollster, but when push comes to shove, their preference is for Remain. That's worth about 5 percentage points of the gap between the polls. While the phone polls are almost certainly slightly too kind to the remain side, they're probably a better estimate about the current state of opinion.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sat 21 May, 2016 02:42 pm
@Tes yeux noirs,
The closer the date, the dumber the argumentation, I think.

Now the EU-membership of Turkey is a reason to vote 'no'. (That would take more than ten years, if all goes smoothly, from today onwards.)

Quote:
Vote Leave said: “Since the birth rate in Turkey is so high, we can expect to see an additional million people added to the UK population from Turkey alone within eight years.

Oh well, we could send some millions from here additionally.

Quote:
Crime is far higher in Turkey than the UK. Gun ownership is also more widespread.
I'm not opening a sub-threat about what is considered to be a crime in Turkey.
Gun ownership:the estimated rate of private gun ownership (both licit and illicit) in Germany is 30.3 firearms per 100 people. - The estimated rate of private gun ownership (both licit and illicit) in Turkey is 12.5 firearms per 100 people.

Source of the quotes:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/21/vote-leave-prejudice-turkey-eu-security-threat wrote:
Vote Leave embroiled in race row over Turkey security threat claims
 

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