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Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

 
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 09:35 am
@Walter Hinteler,
We had to go thru the same rules and regulations as a Gastarbeiter. Six months he should have to prove he could support me. That they forgot about.
The same proceedure as the Gastarbeiter. Kindergarten even tried if they could support because of a Gastarbeiter child. We said yes, but it did not work out.
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 09:39 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Why is it then that people I know, whatever pro EU, critical or sceptical and still remainer never ever use the expression EU citizens. I hardly know any who really wants to leave.
Things have to go just according how you think. If a person does not use EU citizen then they are Brexit or what ever.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 09:42 am
@saab,
saab wrote:
Things have to go just according how you think. If a person does not use EU citizen then they are Brexit or what ever.
Not at all!

What ever the reason is that some citizen of the EU calls herself/himself different to the term - she/he still is an EU-citizen.
saab
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 09:51 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Of course we follow the signs of EU citizens at airports.
But that does not mean one refers to oneself in daily speach as an EU citizen.
If I am asked what citizen I am I certainly do not say EU citizen, but my nationality - just as the majority of normal people.
I do not think the IRS or any other taxes would accept something else. Neither does the police or hotels, nor if I need a visa to another country.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 10:00 am
@saab,
saab wrote:

If I am asked what citizen I am I certainly do not say EU citizen, but my nationality - just as the majority of normal people.
You certainly know that in German we have the term "nationality" and "citizenship" - but use it sometimes synonym, sometimes differently.
If someone asks me what citizen I am - I am a Lippstädter .... but I am a "Geseker" (my native town).
My nationality is German, I am a Westphalian in the state of North Rhine Westphalia ...

You couldn't have German nationality before 1913 by the way ... only then the Nationality Law of the German Empire and States (Reichs- und Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz,) established the German nationality ("citizenship").
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 01:30 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Ha ha ha, diese Franzosen!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2017 12:21 pm
Dominic Cummings, the Vote Leave campaign director behind the now infamous claim that leaving the EU could see £350m a week pumped into the NHS, described the referendum as a "dumb idea" while warning that Brexit is shaping up to be a "guaranteed debacle".

HuffPost (UK): Vote Leave Campaign Chief Dominic Cummings Admits Leaving The EU Could ‘Be An Error’

BBC: Could Vote Leave chief Dominic Cummings wish he'd not won?
ossobucotemp
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2017 12:56 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I'm glad he admitted that. Now... what to do about it?
Kolyo
 
  2  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2017 02:23 pm
@ossobucotemp,
ossobucotemp wrote:

I'm glad he admitted that. Now... what to do about it?


Deride and mock the British people some more?

For some people there's never a bad time for that.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2017 02:42 pm
@Kolyo,
It's hard for Europeans to feel much empathy for a nation leaving their club, and slamming the club's door.
Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Jul, 2017 10:56 pm
@Olivier5,
World's sixth largest economy. If the Brits decide they really don't want it anymore, and the EU realizes they are stronger with the UK than without it, why go through with it?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 Jul, 2017 10:59 pm
@Blickers,
Because of the result of the referendum the UK triggered article 50.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Sat 8 Jul, 2017 03:31 am
@Blickers,
That's a nice theory. In practice though, one thing that Brexit did is make many Europeans realize that they are better off without the UK in the Union, because the UK has always slowed things down. They've always back-pedaled.

Another thing is that ridicule has its price. If the UK scraps the whole brexit idea at this point in time, their credibility and standing in the EU will remain severely damaged. They won't regain the position they had before the referendum. So that route implies the UK swalowing its national pride for years if not decades.

It's not in the cards.
centrox
 
  4  
Reply Sat 8 Jul, 2017 03:48 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
If the UK scraps the whole brexit idea at this point in time, their credibility and standing in the EU will remain severely damaged. They won't regain the position they had before the referendum. So that route implies the UK swalowing its national pride for years if not decades.

It's not in the cards.

It is never too late to turn from a foolish path, and doing so is always the right thing to do. Luke 15:7 "... joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons". The referendum vote was very narrow; one third each of the electorate voted for leave and remain. Many leave voters are having second thoughts. There are many of us who are prepared to eat any number of **** sandwiches rather than rush over a cliff. A second referendum might produce an interesting result.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Sat 8 Jul, 2017 04:26 am
@centrox,
I agree it would be the right thing to do, but I don't think the UK as a polity can summon the amount of humility and realism necessary to swallow that pill.

In the end, the European project was always carried forward by people who felt uncomfortable with European history of petty nationalism, who felt that the national cloth was cut a bit too tight for their mind. That the rotten brew of age-old hatred permeating European relations for centuries should give way to a new spirit of camaraderie, in pursuit of a common destiny.

How many Brits feel that way? How Brits have misgivings about the self-serving historical narrative carried forward by their ancestors? How many of them feel European?
centrox
 
  4  
Reply Sat 8 Jul, 2017 05:20 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
How many Brits feel that way? How Brits have misgivings about the self-serving historical narrative carried forward by their ancestors? How many of them feel European?

I have felt European since I was a child and first visited Europe in 1965. Lots feel that way. Roughly a third of the electorate felt strongly enough to vote Remain in the referendum. About the same number as voted the other way. (I just told you this.) I am a member of Bristol For Europe which has thousands of members. My local MP, a Remain supporter, had her majority increased to an amazing 16,000 at the General Election. This was after on 27 January 2017 she had stated that she would vote against triggering Article 50, despite being a whip herself and Labour imposing a three line whip to vote for the Government motion.

Next week is a rally in Bristol at which the speakers will be Jolyon Maugham QC, and Dr Mike Galsworthy from Scientists for EU. Maugham is a lawyer who single handedly attempted to get a ruling from the European Court of Justice that Article 50 could be revoked. He planned to do this through the Irish Courts, but the Irish Government wouldn't play ball.

oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 8 Jul, 2017 05:47 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Another thing is that ridicule has its price. If the UK scraps the whole brexit idea at this point in time, their credibility and standing in the EU will remain severely damaged. They won't regain the position they had before the referendum. So that route implies the UK swalowing its national pride for years if not decades.

I don't think that is the case. The UK's position in the EU has been based on the size of their economy and the size of their military. Those factors will remain the same, which means the UK would have much the same position as before if they choose to stay within the EU.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sat 8 Jul, 2017 05:55 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
The UK's position in the EU has been based on the size of their economy and the size of their military.
"Military" became a topic only with the Maastricht treaty (Article 42 of Treaty on European Union) in 1992 .
The UK has been and nowadays is even more an opponent of defense integration in the EU (they weren't a member of the former Western European Union [European Defence Community] either).
0 Replies
 
Blickers
 
  2  
Reply Sat 8 Jul, 2017 01:07 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote Walter:
Quote:

Because of the result of the referendum the UK triggered article 50.

Article 50 is written in the EU Constitution, but not written in stone. Surely there is an amendment process that can be employed if enough members so desire it.

Besides which, there is an alternative where the Brexit takes place, but enough trade agreements are made so in practical terms, it is as if they never left at all. This is possible if both sides think the Brexit was a mistake.
Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jul, 2017 01:14 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote Olivier5:
Quote:
That's a nice theory. In practice though, one thing that Brexit did is make many Europeans realize that they are better off without the UK in the Union, because the UK has always slowed things down. They've always back-pedaled.

Seems to me it's a risk/benefit question. In addition to being the world's sixth largest economy, there is this:

Jobless Rate:
Eurozone..........9.3%
Germany...........3.9%
UK....................4.6%


Is Europe so sure it wants to get rid of the UK economy? Its jobless rate is less than half that of the Eurozone.
0 Replies
 
 

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