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Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jun, 2017 01:10 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Americans (and other non-EU-nationals) living in Spain are doing so under different EU regulations than Article 21 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.


Are Spain and other EU nations no longer able to establish their own residency requirements on the part of non-EU foreign nationals? Has national sovereignty sunk that far?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 Jun, 2017 01:34 pm
@georgeob1,
Well, they signed the Schengen treaty - other countries didn't do it, some non-EU-countries did ...

Residence formality rules may differ in a specific EU-country, but permanent residence cards are valid in all EU-countries.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jun, 2017 07:21 am
If true that seems to be based on a wishful thinking:
EU states start to examine whether UK is likely to reverse Brexi
Quote:
Ambassadors from larger EU states have started to review whether the UK will reverse its Brexit decision in light of the election result, despite many concluding no foreseeable political scenario exists for abandoning it.

Splits in Theresa May’s cabinet have emerged this week as senior figures set out alternative timetables for Brexit while the German finance minister, Wolfgang Schäuble, suggested the UK might realise at some point it “made a mistake”.

But the diplomats say senior UK civil servants have given no sign to them of an imminent change to May’s red lines on leaving the single market, the custom’s union and the jurisdiction of the European court of justice. They are expressing private impatience at the inability of the British government to set out a more detailed plan for Brexit more than a year after the referendum.

“It is is very inconvenient in my job that I cannot tell my capital what kind Brexit either of the main parties wishes to pursue. There is no clear information, just information on what politicians will not accept,” said one ambassador.

The chancellor, Philip Hammond, said this week in Berlin that the UK would not seek to remain members of the EU single market or the customs union but also called for early discussions on a lengthy transition period. He said the UK might want to negotiate a deal that was equivalent to being in the single market or the customs union without taking that legal form.

One ambassador at the heart of the talks said there was no guarantee the EU would even accept a transition, referring to a statement by the European council president, Donald Tusk, that there were only two options open to Britain: hard Brexit or continued EU membership.

The UK Treasury is desperate to reduce the levels of uncertainty about a future relationship, but this, EU diplomats say, is one of their strongest negotiating hands and talks on a possible transition may not begin until next year.

An EU-based diplomat said the onus remained on the UK to come up with a plan. He cited a recent speech by the former UK ambassador to the EU Lord Kerr, who said: “It is odd, if we want a deep and special relationship with the EU, not to have proposed one. A year after the referendum, we have still put forward no plan, suggestion, outline or proposal for how one might in future organise cooperation”.

The ambassadors do recognise, however, that softer Brexit solutions are likely to come back under discussion in coming months as the UK government’s apparent willingness before the general election to leave without a deal had faded. These options include membership of the European Economic Area, potentially on a temporary basis to maintain full single market access, joining the European Free Trade Association as a shortcut to replacing free trade deals negotiated by the EU and a customs union agreement with Brussels.

A third ambassador from a country close to the UK said he believed Whitehall departments were still coming to terms with the scale of the administrative tasks facing civil servants once outside the EU.

“The tragedy is that the issue that set all this off may be solved by the time the UK comes to Brexit,” he said. “There is a good chance the UK economy is heading for a quite nasty downturn due to its reliance on financial services, just as the EU is on an upturn, so the Poles that came to the UK will either stay at home or be going to elsewhere like Germany, and the numbers of migrants coming to the UK will be below 100,000.”

0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Fri 30 Jun, 2017 08:56 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The complex overlay of distinct treaty arrangements makes for a bewildering complex of distinct combinations - rather like the Byzantine Fault problem.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Fri 30 Jun, 2017 11:44 pm
@georgeob1,
From an opinion (To make Brexit work, Britain needs to show Europe it cares) by John Bruton, taoiseach of the Republic of Ireland from 1994-97
Quote:
The EU is a rules-based institution, and EU membership is attractive for smaller countries, like Ireland, precisely because it is a rules-based institution, rather than one based on the exercise of raw power.

A country that has left the EU, and is no longer willing to submit to its common rules and to the jurisdiction of the court that interprets those rules, cannot expect to retain the main benefits of membership. That would undermine the EU’s essential nature.

georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2017 10:39 am
@Walter Hinteler,
An apt expression of the Irish perspective on their former British oppressors. They're rather easy going people who don't hold grudges. However the taoisech should ask himself who makes the rules to which he refers and who benefits most from them.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2017 02:15 pm
Quote:
Six out of 10 Britons want to keep their European Union citizenship after Brexit – including the rights to live, work, study and travel in the EU – and many would be prepared to pay large sums to do so, according to research led by the London School of Economics.

Support for retaining the rights is particularly strong among 18- to 24-year-olds, 85% of whom want to retain their EU citizenship in addition to their British citizenship. Around 80% of people living in London also want to maintain the same rights.
[...]
In a speech to the LSE this week, the director-general of the CBI, Carolyn Fairbairn, will paint a grim picture of the impact that Theresa May’s plan to leave both the single market and customs union will have on the UK economy.

“In the last 40 years, EU integration has cut through complexity, making things simpler for business,” she will say. “The single market means one single set of rules for the whole EU – saving Europe’s 22 million firms time and money, while the customs union lowers even more barriers to trade.

“Even for something as everyday as a loaf of bread, EU rules cut through the complexity – and make things simpler for business and clearer for consumers.”
Source
saab
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 04:17 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Six out of 10 Britons want to keep their European Union citizenship after Brexit

I must admit it confused me. I have never in my life heard anyone say that they are EU citizens. It sounds as if there could have been a possibility to personally pay for remaining a EU citizen.
This morning I saw the same thing in a Swedish paper
60% wants GB to remain as member of EU.
That conviced me. It sounded much more logical. Also people would be willing to pay more to keep their EU rights. They do not want Brexit at all.
Not one word about keeping the EU citizenship after Brexit.
centrox
 
  3  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 04:21 am
@saab,
saab wrote:
I have never in my life heard anyone say that they are EU citizens.

I have been proud to (often) say I am an EU citizen for many years. This may be taken away from me by crooks and fascists.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 04:35 am
@saab,
saab wrote:
This morning I saw the same thing in a Swedish paper
60% wants GB to remain as member of EU.
That conviced me. It sounded much more logical. Also people would be willing to pay more to keep their EU rights. They do not want Brexit at all.
Not one word about keeping the EU citizenship after Brexit.
The quoted poll asked if they "want to retain their EU citizenship in addition to their British citizenship". I don't know to what poll the Swedish paper referred.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 04:40 am
@saab,
saab wrote:
I have never in my life heard anyone say that they are EU citizens. It sounds as if there could have been a possibility to personally pay for remaining a EU citizen.
Well, most of my English say so - as do many (not to say: most) Germans.

EU-citizenship conferred directly on every EU citizen by the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU [Article 20 Lisbon Treaty] - why do you think "It sounds as if there could have been a possibility to personally pay for remaining a EU citizen"?
saab
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 04:49 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The same as yours: London School of Economics.
I do not doubt the result, it just interesting how things come out differently in different countries.
Double citizenship is given left and right so why not in this case.
Quote:
Studien som är gjord av London School of Economics visar även att många britter kan tänka sig betala stora summor för att behålla EU-rättigheterna.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 04:59 am
@saab,
Actually, the poll hasn't been published last week, when the Guardian and other papers reported about it.

Quote:
The poll was carried out by professor Bruter and Sarah Harrison from the LSE’s research initiative for the study of electoral psychology, ECREP, in conjunction with polling firm Opinium.

In some instances, people were ready to pay very large sums of money for the citizenship, and this includes people who voted to exit from the union.

Of those who voted Leave in June last year but would now be willing to pay for EU citizenship, one in 10 said they would pay more than £1,000 a year to guarantee their rights.

On average, respondents said they would expect to pay £405 per year, which included 32 per cent of people who would not be willing to pay anything.

Among those who said they would be willing to pay, the average sum cited rocketed to £594.

Professor Bruter told The Independent that the issue of EU citizenship could crystallise the Brexit negotiations.

“This is a real symbolic issue that is also linked to people’s emotions. We wanted to do this study to find out what people thought about the issue while the negotiations are ongoing.

“It shows that young people are very attached to their European citizenship. These are people who were born in a world with 28 member states and more than 500 million people – suddenly, their world has got much smaller.

“Previous research we carried out also showed that despite the UK having a very large number of people who did not feel European at all it also had the third biggest proportion of people who said feeling very European.”
... ... ...
Source
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 05:02 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Most Germans ?
I never heard any German say so and I just asked a couple of friends and they never heard it either.
I live in Germany.
I have neither heard in Scandinavia. I think the Swedes who have worked and
lived a lot in Europe feel more as Swedes and European than EU citizens. At least that a journalist found out during a research.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 05:25 am
@saab,
I suppose it could depend on if they use their rights as EU-citizens.

Since you live in Germany, you certainly did - whether you say it or not.
saab
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 05:55 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I do not think it depends on using their rights as EU-citizens. We all do when we travel or work within EU. It is a feeling.
I did not come to Germany because being an EU citizen. I came here as the wife of a Gastarbeiter. Sweden was not in EU, so I was a Gastarbeiter wife.I had to have an allowance to live here.
My passport is outside a cheap looking red colour and inside it is Swedish with a beautiful design.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 06:14 am
@saab,
saab wrote:
I do not think it depends on using their rights as EU-citizens. We all do when we travel or work within EU. It is a feeling.
I've leant in the UK that this thinking is often to be found by Brexiters: take all advantages of and as an EU-citizen but don't feel like it and oppose the EU.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 06:21 am
@saab,
saab wrote:
I came here as the wife of a Gastarbeiter. Sweden was not in EU, so I was a Gastarbeiter wife.I had to have an allowance to live here.
Well, I think, you use the German word "Gastarbeiter" incorrectly when you are Swedish/Danish: it was used between 1960 and 1968 for persons from Spain, Greece, Turkey, Maroc, South Korea, Portugal, Tunesia and Yugoslavia who were hired for a limited period.
[Similarly, the Netherlands and Belgium had a parallel scheme called the gastarbeider programme. Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland had similar programmes called arbetskraftsinvandring]
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 06:41 am
The French can't wait for the Brits to leave... The recently updated edition of Aedis’ “Petit Guide” shows a map of 27 EU countries, excluding the UK. Smile

http://www.aedis-editions.fr/_html/www.aedis-editions.fr/dynamicData/images/livres/15_1.jpg
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 07:05 am
@Olivier5,
What can you expect on 8 pages for 4.50€? Wink

Interesting on their website:
http://i.imgur.com/JiOWAJ2.jpg
 

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