Possibility of supernova fragment "meteorites" reaching Earth

Ultimately every chunk of solid matter is a supernova remnant. I suspect that there are lots of raw remnants in the form of asteroids, but I don't know how you would differentiate them from other debris.

Thanks for the reply rosborne979....the reason I asked that question is that my brother and I recently acquired two "meteorite" fragments that were recovered from a witnessed fall in 1986 in the rural community where I grew up. We had a fairly sophisticated TOF-SIMS (time-of-flight secondary-ion-mass-spectrometry) test done on the fragments. Even though we already knew they were not ordinary meteorites in appearance, the TOF-SIMS data surprised us, indicating huge amounts of chromium (~70%) and only deepened the mystery. So far, 40 elements covering the first 8 categories on the periodic table have been identified and around 185 molecular species (i.e. carbon chains, hydrocarbons, etc.) with many more "hits" yet to identify. They are clearly meteoric in origin but a microscopic petrology examination shows the metal grain structure to resemble foundry/blast furnace material more so than known metal or stony type meteorites. Just trying to figure out what these things are but the profile is looking more and more like supernova fragments. Wish I could find a cosmochemist/astronomer interested in taking a closer look at these things. Feeling like the old saying about "Area 51"......It's there but it doesn't exist...lol....anyway, didn't mean to make this reply so long

Most of the references to Supernovae debris refer to it as gas. And it may be possible that Supernovae, because of their extremely energetic explosions, only produce gaseous debris. I'm just not sure.

Ultimately, all the material in the solar system except for the original elements formed in the Big Bang (Hydrogen, Helium and Lithium), came from Supernovae. What I can't find any reference to is just what the debris looked like. Was it all just gas or were there big chunks as well? I don't know.

All that being the case, it still seems highly likely that most meteorites are not direct remnants to Supernovae, but remnants of shattered planets and planetesimals from the early solar system formation. But I don't know how to determine this. I have read that the relative abundance of special isotopes like Iron-60 are used as markers for Supernova origin. But since your login name is iron-60, I assume you are aware of this already.

rosborne979,
yes on the iron-60.....from what I have found in the research, there are differences of opinion (in the scientific community) about the nature of the supernova explosion (symmetrical vs. asymmetrical) but the general agreement seems to be the explosive force, photodisintegration, and radiation pretty much blasts the star to dust. However, there have been recent discoveries of asymmetrical supernova remnants (i.e. polar blowouts). For me it's just hard to accept that a star with that much size and mass could detonate with such precision. Other factors also persuade me (i.e. tremendous gravitational forces, angular momentum, different envelope velocities at the poles vs equator, intense magnetic flux lines that are probably aligning atomic elements in uneven densities north to south, etc.) Sometimes the theoretical models can't get past two-dimensional projections. But anyway, thanks for the feedback....just finished sending out a few more emails with report of my research to some more folks in the astronomy field....maybe I'll eventually get someone's attention. These fragments really belong in the Smithsonian....maybe they will one day.

Can you post some links to some photos of the fragments, I would like to see them.

rosborne979,
I posted some photos to Shutterfly.....First time I have done this so if you have trouble viewing them let me know....also let me know what you think. Fragment #1 on left weighs 4+ lbs. and fragment #2 weighs 6+ lbs. Due to the high chromium content, surface is highly reflective and doesn't photograph well in strong light conditions so I had to take photos in low natural light conditions. "White-ish" photos were taken in negative mode to help show surface features better. Web address is //meteoritephotos.shutterfly.com Not quite sure how to set up link

That link was fine.

They do look very metallic. What is that whitish crystal stuff on it? Has that been identified?

Have they been professionally confirmed as meteorite fragments? If so you shouldn't have much trouble getting some people with more specialized training interested (I would think). Do you live near a University or a large city anywhere? We have a Geologist on-site here. I'll make sure he knows about this thread since you have posted photo's.

As for whether they could possibly be remnants of a supernova in raw form (without having been aggregated in to a molten planet and recycled already), I can't say for sure. But it's an interesting question.

The only talk in the google-sphere about supernova remnants is from people who seem very excited to find a few microscopic grains of some material which they think is from a supernova. Based on that it makes me think that anything larger than a microscopic speck would be pretty significant.

There are many different types of supernovae, and as you mentioned many are asymmetrical which might allow for some larger chunks of material to escape the shock wave intact. I think you will need someone with specialized knowledge for this. Have you tried any of the astronomy or physics forums?

I found this YouTube video. It's pretty clearly the same rock you posted pictures of. Why didn't you just reference the video in the first place?

rosborne979,
the youtube video was posted several months ago, pretty soon after initial TOF-SIMS results were in and only cursory elemental data was established. Much more data identification has been done since and also I felt the video images don't show the detail that the posted photos reveal. I'm not sure what you mean about the "whitish stuff" but some of the images are taken in the negative. If you are referring to the regular images, the white spots are reflective light from the high chromium content.

No, the fragments have not been professionally identified. That's the problem I'm having right now. Since the physical appearance doesn't fit into any known meteorite category, I can't get any researcher in the field of meteorites to do any specialized testing to chemically verify (to their satisfaction) meteoric origin.....Kind of disappointing to me.....really, the field of meteorite research is still in it's infancy but the mold seems to already be set as to what all meteorites "have to look like". Just as recently as 150 years ago, mainstream science refused to believe meteorites fell from the sky. I'm kind of beginning to understand how someone back then felt when they saw one fall only to have the scientific community rebuff them.

If I could only get just one qualified person to take a closer look at them, they won't be disappointed.

Thanks for passing the photos on to your colleague.

rosborne979,
As for trying any astronomy or physics forums, that's what I'm doing on this site. I've not tried this forum thing before, but thought I would give it a try. If you know any forums in those categories that might be a good fit please let me know. Thank you for showing an interest in this. I have spent literally thousands of hours of my spare time researching these things and it can be discouraging at times running into so many brick walls. Your interest is encouraging. In fact, your replies are the only ones I've had so far on this site....lots of views, but no other replies.

I've viewed it several times. Like many, my failure to post was due to lack of useful information or opinion. Rosborne is one of only a handful who would be both interested and helpful.

did they run the EDaX in a scanning mode? We often use it to run a beam along the surface of a "specimen" to see how the metal of interest occurs (Like Cr in euchrites occurs in a specific pattern).

Did you cid etch the surface? Ive never ever seen ny meteorite so shiny without actual etching of slabbing to look for widmenstatten lines
Im an economic geologist but not too involved with meteorites. Id suggest getting in touch with A Koretev at Washington University at ST Louis. He has a large meteorite and tektite lab.


Heres a list of Cr/vFe:Mg ranges in specimens that Koretev had published.
He is an expert of "meteorwrongs"

I don't understand why you are running into "brick walls". Are professional classification services refusing to look at it for some reason? Or are they giving you an analysis which you don't agree with?

The following link should give you a number of resources to contact to help classify your find: http://imca.cc/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=39

The question you raise about supernova fragments (larger than microscopic specs) is an interesting question in its own right, but something I would treat separately from identifying the fragment.

excellent resource link. I see that Koretev is at the bottom.
Ive found that meteorite collectors are like collectors of the "true cross". They will argue and argue about thge "provenance" of their find and it can get really boring when I dont reqlly get the evidence.

I Love sliced chondrites, they can be beautifully translucent with all sorts of pyroxenes

Meteorite sales is a flourishing market, and I don't think that would be possible if there weren't some reasonably accessible method for getting them analyzed and quantified. Otherwise it would be a flourishing market of "I found this funky rock in my driveway and I want $10k for it".

I'm back, sorry for the delayed response.....fair question. Sent two samples to New England Meteoritical for petrology evaluation and classification (a standard fee applied). Petrology detected no "classic" physical features associated with known meteorite classes (i.e. chondritic formations, or structures associated with partial reduction and reforming, etc.). I requested the next step in the services they provide which is chemical analyses (I offered to pay an additional fee for it) but they declined because "it didn't pass petrology evaluation"......now that's discouraging.....they wouldn't even do for an extra fee. Examiner said it was probably foundry/blast furnace material. It's like the experts needed for meteoritic authentication can't or won't get past the non-traditional physical characteristics these fragments have.....just do some chemical analyses to authenticate.....please.....test for isotope fractionations....something!

If my theory of supernova origin is correct, it probably would resemble blast furnace material. The fragments came from a complete "reduction" environment. These things are literally a "soup" of atomic elements and differing molecular species.....carbon chains, hydrocarbons, noble gases, all the alkali metals up through cesium, rare earths like rhodium, strange radicals that could only have survived trapped in inert noble gas pockets.

I don't claim to be an expert in this field but I have been researching these things for almost 2 years and have learned enough to know that some of the stuff in these fragments require extreme conditions to form and very special conditions to survive for any length of time.

Meteoritical services seem to be few and far between. Nasa/ Houston doesn't evaluate for private citizens anymore. A place in Arizona stopped also. My options seem to be limited to institutional organizations at this time. Sent emails/report to Smithsonian, and Carnegie Science Dept. of Terrestrial Magnetism (has cosmochemistry, astronomy depts.) recently. Still waiting for replies.

Anyway....hope that answers your question
Actually....I will try to shutterfly link my report for you to look over if you're interested

Thanks for your interest....feel free to comment at any time

It's hard to believe universities aren't interested.

I agree.....seems like I have a "white elephant" on my hands.....reminds me of an old warner brothers cartoon I saw as a child.....demolition worker finds a box in an old building's hollow cornerstone....sneaks box home.....opens it and out hops a singing frog....long story short, he ends up spending his life savings trying to make a new career with his famous singing frog before he finds out frog only sings for him......reduced to poverty, he sneaks frog in box into a new buildings cornerstone.......100 years into future.....guess what....same story repeats...lol